Mozart

[Teresa]

http://blogcritics.org/music/article/why-mozart/

James thanks for the link, I enjoyed it immensely.

"Mozart was a bad composer who died too late rather than too early."
Glenn Gould

"most of Mozart's music is dull."
Maria Callas

"If a man tells me he likes Mozart, I know in advance that he is a bad musician."
Frederick Delius

Perhaps I have been too easy on the hack Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart?  Perhaps he is not technically a very good composer at all?  Perhaps he is a bad composer both technically and musically?

Even though he followed most of the rules, not all and he even wrote new rules of composition, it is the results that are important and taking that into consideration I withdraw my support of WA Mozart as a technically very good composer.  After a lot of soul searching and reading of this thread I am now convinced he is a terribly bad composer through and through. 

It's not just that I do not like his music (I don't) and think his talents are not there and neither is his compositional abilities.  As I have said "raw" technique does not produce profound music either in the written or performance end of the spectrum.   There is talent I can hear in the work of composers I do not like and I can find NONE of this in the works of Mozart.

In short there are many composers I do not like and most of them are musically good composers.  But Mozart is different and unacceptable in every definition of the word.  I will no longer try to find anything nice to say about Wolfgang Amadeus Mozazt, as he is undeserving.

In additional I firmly believe he has been a negative influence on some of my favorite composers, as I believe their music would be even better if Mozart had never been born! 

[Philoctetes]

James thanks for the link, I enjoyed it immensely.

"Mozart was a bad composer who died too late rather than too early."
Glenn Gould

"most of Mozart's music is dull."
Maria Callas

"If a man tells me he likes Mozart, I know in advance that he is a bad musician."
Frederick Delius

Perhaps I have been too easy on the hack Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart?  Perhaps he is not technically a very good composer at all?  Perhaps he is a bad composer both technically and musically?

Even though he followed most of the rules, not all and he even wrote new rules of composition, it is the results that are important and taking that into consideration I withdraw my support of WA Mozart as a technically very good composer.  After a lot of soul searching and reading of this thread I am now convinced he is a terribly bad composer through and through. 

It's not just that I do not like his music (I don't) and think his talents are not there and neither is his compositional abilities.  As I have said "raw" technique does not produce profound music either in the written or performance end of the spectrum.   There is talent I can hear in the work of composers I do not like and I can find NONE of this in the works of Mozart.

In short there many composers I do not like and most of them are musically good composers.  But Mozart is different and unacceptable in every definition of the word.  I will no longer try to find anything nice to say about Wolfgang Amadeus Mozazt, as he is undeserving.

In additional I firmly believe he has been a negative influence on some of my favorite composers, as I believe their music would be even better if Mozart had never been born!

The link wasn't from James, nor do I think that you read the link carefully or with a critically eye. It's a very specific type of webpage, as I pointed out to James, and should not be used to try and bolster an argument.

The rest of your post is undeserving of attention.

[Elgarian]

Oh. Does Teresa not like Mozart, then?

[knight66]

Here is a special passage from Mozart; Marriage of Figaro, the Countess forgives her husband, music of reconcilliation, genius.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjQFYaCwOvM

Mike

[Franco]

This thread has become so odd, quite remarkable to say the least.  I don't think I've ever read such strange and weird comments about Mozart.  I can't quite believe what my eyes see - the sentences are just so bizarre it defies reason.

But, it is funny, in a sad kind of way.

[bhodges]

Here is a special passage from Mozart; Marriage of Figaro, the Countess forgives her husband, music of reconcilliation, genius.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjQFYaCwOvM

Mike

Beautiful clip, Mike.  Like that brisk tempo in the finale!  (PS, I recognize a very young Bryn Terfel but not many of the others...)

--Bruce

[knight66]

Franco,

You must have forgotten the Newman-Mozart-Fraud saga; the stuff there went where the buses don't run.

Mike

[Elgarian]

Here is a special passage from Mozart; Marriage of Figaro, the Countess forgives her husband, music of reconcilliation, genius.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjQFYaCwOvM

Mike

A perfect choice. It makes all of what's been said here, by all parties, superfluous.

So does this, from Cosi:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Wi7UsXW1As

[knight66]

Beautiful clip, Mike.  Like that brisk tempo in the finale!  (PS, I recognize a very young Bryn Terfel but not many of the others...)

--Bruce

Mike

[knight66]

A perfect choice. It makes all of what's been said here, by all parties, superfluous.

So does this, from Cosi:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Wi7UsXW1As

Agreed, It transports me, very beautiful. This is the version I have on DVD.

Then this from one of the best Mozart singers I know of.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJJT108WZ7o

Mike

[bhodges]

Thanks, very nice! 

And like that Cosi fan tutte clip, Alan--thanks for that, too.

--Bruce

[Scarpia]

A beautiful performance from an unexpected source.  The soprano really made an impression on me, in music reportedly Mozart wrote for his own wife.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4SFkmthygU&feature=related

[knight66]

A beautiful performance from an unexpected source.  The soprano really made an impression on me, in music reportedly Mozart wrote for his own wife.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4SFkmthygU&feature=related

Thanks for that, also very good choral work with excellent phrasing.

Now let's not neglect this, it may explain whay one artist criticises another.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMXX2A5pIac

Mike

[knight66]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9x8LzNb6Nk&feature=PlayList&p=66CECFA1C4CDA1B3&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=48

Same piece different singer and more the sound and approach we are accustomed to.

Mike

[knight66]

I guess we can't help you thinking like a juvenile, perhaps you can't help it either. Those clips are for our pleasure and I am well past interest in your comments, well past. I am not trying to convince you, I assume you did not listen to the clips. Often the music can be left to speak for itself.

But if you want your posts left visible, step away from the line of insult.

Knight

[Scarpia]

Yesterday listened to a rare piece by Mozart remains largely unfamiliar to me.  The Divertimento for string trio in E-flat, K 563.   A wonderful piece.  It brings home what I consider a key point of Mozart's genius, the ability to make something special from something which is ostensibly very simple.  In this case, the constraints are the relatively light character expected from a Divertimento, and the sparse texture imposed by the string trio.  Still, I find there is something magical going on.

The recording I am listening to is probably the most well known of this piece, by the Grumiaux trio on Philips.

[Franco]

Seriously, what is so odd or sad about it though?

I find it odd that you both persist in expressing your dislike of Mozart and even seem to get a charge from saying something for shock value like a Robin Williams bit where he impersonated a Frenchman saying "Yes, the baby is smoking, does it make you angry?" - but not as funny or nearly as clever.

We get it: you don't like Mozart's music.

[Scarpia]

I find it odd that you both persist in expressing your dislike of Mozart and even seem to get a charge from saying something for shock value like a Robin Williams bit where he impersonated a Frenchman saying "Yes, the baby is smoking, does it make you angry?" - but not as funny or nearly as clever.

We get it: you don't like Mozart's music.

Please don't feed the troll. 

[Luke]

Alright then ...

Gould was just an example picked out by another member, and not really the heart of what i was asking you ...you did make some 'interesting' claims there earlier about folks disliking Mozart, and all i was asking is if you would offer the same sort-of "advice" to those major musicians who hate it aswell. Does the "missing it", "not ready to listen" "not interested in subtlety" "needing to learn how to listen to it" etc. criteria & short-comings you laid out for "us" also apply for them? Yes or No.

Firstly, I'm not offering advice, nor am I making claims about people who dislike Mozart. It's nothing to do with me. I'm saying what happened for me. Specifically, what happened initially was that I read books which made me aware of intricacies in the music which had passed me by until then....and once I had seen them, other examples seemed to spring up all over the place, and I wondered why I hadn't noticed them before, and I revelled in this new aspect to musical craft which I hadn't really appreciated before. My issue; no one else's, don't get paranoid! 

When a composer like Delius rejects Mozart, well, fine, composers often do that sort of thing, it's part of the establishment of their own aesthetic stance. I love Brahms even more than I love Mozart, but Britten's dismissal of him bothers me not a jot, even though I love Britten's music deeply too. Once again, rejecting the once-beloved Brahms was necessary for Britten in establishing himself, setting his own boundaries - Brahms came to represent something to which fundamentally, on an aesthetic level, he was opposed, even though he knew that the music itself was sheer quality through and through. As to the idea that I would try to suggest to these composers that they weren't listening properly- well, that's clearly rubbish; I know full well that Britten knew everything there was to admire in Brahms; and I assume that Delius knew the same about Mozart. The fact that they knew it, but still distanced themselves from the music, is very interesting, in and of itself, it tells us alot about them, but it doesn't affront my sensibilities or any such rubbish, and nor does it cause me to reconsider my own opinions of either them or Mozart/Brahms/whoever.

As for the

' "missing it", "not ready to listen" "not interested in subtlety" "needing to learn how to listen to it" etc. criteria & short-comings you laid out for "us"

....these weren't criteria I was laying out for anyone, or 'claims I was making' about people who dislike Mozart, as you said earlier. No, they were just me describing myself at the time I disliked him myself - I was the one missing it, I was the one who hadn't learnt how to listen etc. The only one of those which wasn't describing me, actually, was the 'not interested in subtlety' bit. There, I was thinking specifically of you, or at least the persona you present to the outside world. And I realise it reads as an insult, but actually it isn't meant to, not at all. It's meant as a precise description of the way you come across, very strongly indeed, to me at any rate, and I'm not saying it is a bad/wrong way to be; I am, however, saying that it is probably not a way to be that is going to lead to a love of Mozart. I apologise if you take this as an insult - as I say, it really isn't meant that way.

BTW, the exception to this which has really struck home with me is when you talk about Faure, who is a composer of extreme precision and subtlety as you know, and I admire the way you talk about him greatly. It strike me that the kind of quiet, subtle way in which Faure writes music which actually touches the extremes without making a fuss about it, simply by means of choosing precisely the right notes at the right time is exactly what I love most in Mozart (it's what Faure loved most in Mozart too - 'It is music in which all the notes must be heard'). I find it odd, perhaps, that you can appreciate such an ellusive and subtly-fragranced masterpiece as the late B minor Nocturne of Faure, but not such a similarly subtle masterpiece as the late B minor Adagio of Mozart!

And since you seem to think youre a big musician who's put in a lot of time etc, let me ask you this ...  have ever encountered or even know serious musicians-friends-colleagues you respect that don't like Mozart's music at all for whatever reason? If so, do you also say the same things you have said to us, to them?

Not sure how you get the 'seem to think youre a big musician who's put in a lot of time' from anything I've posted on this thread - but, you know what, to be honest, no, I can truthfully say that I've never encountered any such person, not among composers, performers or academics. And if I had, and if it had arisen in conversation, yes, seeing as it would have been pertinent I suppose would probably have described my own rapprochement with Mozart, how it took place - why the hell not? That wouldn't consitiute me advising them, or patronising them, though, as you like to think. It would be part of a discussion between interested parties.

[Herman]

James thanks for the link, I enjoyed it immensely.

Perhaps I have been too easy on the hack Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart?  Perhaps he is not technically a very good composer at all?  Perhaps he is a bad composer both technically and musically?

Or, alternatively, this shows you have very limited intellectual ability, just plain incapable of seeing the problem is you, not Mozart? For pages people have been nicely trying to explain to you you're mixing up this "technical" "musical" thing and it just flows off you like water off a duck's back. Too difficult. It requires a little distance from one's vain assumptions. Can't be done. The pride with which you expose your thickness is a little disturbing. However, just enjoy it. Mozart will be shaking in his unmarked grave at your rejection, no you don't just dislike his music, you have established (for yourself) he's a really lousy composer. And got a lot of attention for it. Teehee!!!