Mozart

[San Antone]

I'm afraid, the part of my post on the Sibelius thread that I considered most significant was omitted.  In full:


Application of "intense" to music is a metaphor, or an assumption about the composers intent, in my view.  My main point is that a lot is missed when Mozart's music is played in uniformly gentle, polite, dignified manner (i.e., in any recording by Neville Marriner).  After listening to Harnoncourt's performances of the late symphonies, I came to see Mozart as a composer who relished the sound of the orchestra, including the power and intensity of it, and wanted to exploit it to the maximum extent possible.   That's what I feel Harnoncourt conveys in his Concertgebouw performances.

I have wanted to hear those recordings but they are not easy to find other than used (at least from Amazon).  I have heard his recordings of the early symphonies with the Concentus Musicus Wien, which are enjoyable - but the late works would be nice to have.

Hogwood does a very good job and has recorded about everything Mozart wrote that could be called a symphony. 

[Karl Henning]

I'm afraid, the part of my post on the Sibelius thread that I considered most significant was omitted.  In full:

Application of "intense" to music is a metaphor, or an assumption about the composers intent, in my view.  My main point is that a lot is missed when Mozart's music is played in uniformly gentle, polite, dignified manner (i.e., in any recording by Neville Marriner).  After listening to Harnoncourt's performances of the late symphonies, I came to see Mozart as a composer who relished the sound of the orchestra, including the power and intensity of it, and wanted to exploit it to the maximum extent possible.   That's what I feel Harnoncourt conveys in his Concertgebouw performances.

Thanks for the elucidation, Scarps. I quite agree.

The first movement of K. 491. It's doomier and gloomier than 466. While I find pent-up aggression exploding in the D minor, the C minor, to my ears, is bordering on hopelessness. And that last movement, unlike the D minor -- which has a D major ending, doesn't it? -- provides no sign of reprieve. And the feelings that I associate with this music are to some extent intense; and it's not simply a case of extended fortissimo passages.

Very nice counter-example, Nav. There are indeed some tutti passages in the opening Allegro which would not be mischaracterized as intense.

[Scarpia]

I have wanted to hear those recordings but they are not easy to find other than used (at least from Amazon).  I have heard his recordings of the early symphonies with the Concentus Musicus Wien, which are enjoyable - but the late works would be nice to have.

Hogwood does a very good job and has recorded about everything Mozart wrote that could be called a symphony.

Before the iDeals incident, this would have been considered cheap

[asin]B000AOVKH8[/asin]

or

http://www.mdt.co.uk/mozart-symphonies-and-overtures-royal-anniversary-edition-warner-classics-8cds.html

[San Antone]

Before the iDeals incident, this would have been considered cheap

[asin]B000AOVKH8[/asin]

or

http://www.mdt.co.uk/mozart-symphonies-and-overtures-royal-anniversary-edition-warner-classics-8cds.html

Interesting; I have the chamber works from that set - many thanks for the info. I have dropped a copy into my Shopping Cart.

[SonicMan46]

Below is a post that I left in the 'Listening Thread' which quickly was buried! 

But for those looking for a set of Wolfie's Piano Trios on modern instruments and recorded recently, the Florestan Trio is a recommendation; also for those who use BRO, both discs were available for $7 each when purchased (have not checked lately) - short but excellent review reprinted HERE; excellent comments also on the Hyperion website -

Mozart - Piano Trios w/ the Florestan Trio on two single Hyperion CDs (not a Dyad yet, but a bargain purchase from BRO yet again) - I've lived w/ my PI set w/ Steven Lubin (added below, right) for years, and having none other; so after reading some excellent reviews of the Susan Tomes & gang's performances on these discs, I decided to add a modern instrument one; on first hearing, a good decision! 


   

[Opus106]

After Scarpia mentioned Harnoncourt's Mozart yesterday, it occurred to me that Harnoncourt hasn't recorded any of the PCs (read further). Now having searched with Google, it seems that there is just this once CD containing Nos. 23 and 26, with Gulda as the soloist. It seems rather strange that someone like NH, who has conducted a lot of the symphonies, the operas and at least some of the choral works, has hardly touched upon this important part of Mozart's oeuvre in his recordings.

C'mon, Herr Harnoncourt, all of Schubert's symphonies, but only two Mozart PCs?

[Scarpia]

C'mon, Herr Harnoncourt, all of Schubert's symphonies, but only two Mozart PCs?

I have that disc, and it certainly makes me wish there were more.  But given the number of recordings Harnoncourt has given us, it strikes me as unwise to complain.  Aside from recordings, I wonder if he has performed the PCs in concert, and with whom.

[Karl Henning]

Before the iDeals incident, this would have been considered cheap

[asin]B000AOVKH8[/asin]

Very nice. I do call that reasonable . . . ka-ching . . . .

[kishnevi]

Thanks for the elucidation, Scarps. I quite agree.

Very nice counter-example, Nav. There are indeed some tutti passages in the opening Allegro which would not be mischaracterized as intense.

I also agree with Scarpia;  there are some intense passages in Mozart,  although I don't find as many as other people do.   But for a composer of his era,  Mozart was certainly not afraid of emotion; it's just that compared to later eras he comes across as having a stiff upper lip, so to speak.   

Also, I'm not sure it's fair to judge the Requiem by its 'emotional intensity'.  Mozart completed a substantial portion of it, but he left a substantial portion undone.  We know how he started off the Requiem;  but we don't really know how he would have finished it.  All we have is the efforts of one of his students to complete the work using in part reworked material from the portion Mozart did compose.  (And that use of reworked material itself changes the emotional profile of the work, even though we can be fairly sure that Mozart himself would probably not have used the material in that way.)

But certainly playing Mozart as shining surfaces and polite conversation over tea does grave disservice to his music.

[Opus106]

...for a composer of his era,  Mozart was certainly not afraid of emotion; it's just that compared to later eras he comes across as having a stiff upper lip, so to speak.   

Hoffmann, I believe, described Mozart as a Romantic.

[xochitl]

i actually find minor mode mozart the darkest of all music ive ever heard

it even makes me a little bit sick inside

things like the slow movement of symphony 41 as well.  there's something so unspeakably deep and sad about them

[Opus106]

Is the scoring for woodwinds in K. 491 goodness, or what? It's almost like he wrote the concerto for piano, woodwinds and orchestra... perhaps not as virtuoso as for the piano, but oh-so-wonderful nevertheless.

[Opus106]

After Scarpia mentioned Harnoncourt's Mozart yesterday, it occurred to me that Harnoncourt hasn't recorded any of the PCs (read further). Now having searched with Google, it seems that there is just this once CD containing Nos. 23 and 26, with Gulda as the soloist. It seems rather strange that someone like NH, who has conducted a lot of the symphonies, the operas and at least some of the choral works, has hardly touched upon this important part of Mozart's oeuvre in his recordings.

C'mon, Herr Harnoncourt, all of Schubert's symphonies, but only two Mozart PCs?

Ah, Herr H. has acquiesced!

[asin]B009F91YT8[/asin]

[xochitl]

oooh! can't wait to hear that

[Mandryka]

After Scarpia mentioned Harnoncourt's Mozart yesterday, it occurred to me that Harnoncourt hasn't recorded any of the PCs (read further). Now having searched with Google, it seems that there is just this once CD containing Nos. 23 and 26, with Gulda as the soloist. It seems rather strange that someone like NH, who has conducted a lot of the symphonies, the operas and at least some of the choral works, has hardly touched upon this important part of Mozart's oeuvre in his recordings.

C'mon, Herr Harnoncourt, all of Schubert's symphonies, but only two Mozart PCs?

Harnoncourt recorded PC 10 with the Concertgebaouw, Gulda and Corea.

[Opus106]

Harnoncourt recorded PC 10 with the Concertgebaouw, Gulda and Corea.

Thanks for letting us know! Have you listened to it?

[Mandryka]

It's Harnoncourtesque. I love it, but I'm Harnoncourt's biggest fan.

In Monika Mertl's study of Harnoncourt, she writes about how  the original VCM musical philosophy placed tremendous importance on two things:  detecting all  the points in the music which rub you up, the irregularities, the irritants, things which present unevenly, unsmoothly. And exposing all the possibilities for playing the music as debate, as argument, as a drama of opposing points of view.

Well I think that Harnoncourt must have convinced these musicians to follow him with the same ideas. Even the two soloists seem to have bought in to it. Anyway that's how I hear it.

[Opus106]

It's Harnoncourtesque. I love it, but I'm Harnoncourt's biggest fan.

In Monika Mertl's study of Harnoncourt, she writes about how  the original VCM musical philosophy placed tremendous importance on two things:  detecting all  the points in the music which rub you up, the irregularities, the irritants, things which present unevenly, unsmoothly. And exposing all the possibilities for playing the music as debate, as argument, as a drama of opposing points of view.

Well I think that Harnoncourt must have convinced these musicians to follow him with the same ideas. Even the two soloists seem to have bought in to it. Anyway that's how I hear it.

That's a nice titbit. Thanks for sharing.

[Cato]

Greetings, Mozart Mavens!   

One of my 7th Graders has put together a psychology experiment based on the so-called "Mozart Effect."

He plays various types of music in the background while his classmates take a timed test on Geography.

For classical he chose Mozart's Piano Concerto #12 and played the opening movement twice, while the students worked.

Anyway, I mentioned a few things about Wolfie, e.g. about how he was composing when he was their age, and one of my students wanted to know what would be Mozart's "first great work."

A job for the incredible experts at the Good-Music-Guide!!!   

Is anything which he composed, say, before age 14, eligible for "greatness" ? 

(Of course, simply being able to compose a competent symphony or whatever at that age is great, but...)

What say ye?

[Gurn Blanston]

Greetings, Mozart Mavens!   

One of my 7th Graders has put together a psychology experiment based on the so-called "Mozart Effect."

He plays various types of music in the background while his classmates take a timed test on Geography.

For classical he chose Mozart's Piano Concerto #12 and played the opening movement twice, while the students worked.

Anyway, I mentioned a few things about Wolfie, e.g. about how he was composing when he was their age, and one of my students wanted to know what would be Mozart's "first great work."

A job for the incredible experts at the Good-Music-Guide!!!   

Is anything which he composed, say, before age 14, eligible for "greatness" ? 

(Of course, simply being able to compose a competent symphony or whatever at that age is great, but...)

What say ye?

Well, that's a toughie, but in looking at the works he composed before 1770, there is one standout, conceded (by people who knew) to be a masterpiece. It is this;

K047a_139   Missa [solemnis]   Waisenhaus Messe   c minor   
Composed most likely Dec 7, 1768 in Vienna for dedication of Orphanage in Renneweg.

Beyond that, one has to do as you say; well, for a 13 year old, this is brilliant!!