Mozart

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Brahmsian

Quote from: Cato on January 15, 2013, 02:55:50 PM
Greetings, Mozart Mavens!   8)

One of my 7th Graders has put together a psychology experiment based on the so-called "Mozart Effect."

He plays various types of music in the background while his classmates take a timed test on Geography.

For classical he chose Mozart's Piano Concerto #12 and played the opening movement twice, while the students worked.

Anyway, I mentioned a few things about Wolfie, e.g. about how he was composing when he was their age, and one of my students wanted to know what would be Mozart's "first great work."

A job for the incredible experts at the Good-Music-Guide!!!   ;)

Is anything which he composed, say, before age 14, eligible for "greatness" ? 

(Of course, simply being able to compose a competent symphony or whatever at that age is great, but...)

What say ye?

How about.................


K.1

Cato

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 15, 2013, 03:15:02 PM
Well, that's a toughie, but in looking at the works he composed before 1770, there is one standout, conceded (by people who knew) to be a masterpiece. It is this;

K047a_139   Missa [solemnis]   Waisenhaus Messe   c minor   
Composed most likely Dec 7, 1768 in Vienna for dedication of Orphanage in Renneweg.

Beyond that, one has to do as you say; well, for a 13 year old, this is brilliant!!  :)

8)

Many thanks for the recommendation of the Orphanage Mass!

One source claims that the Piano Concerto #9 in E-flat Major, K. 271 is his first great work.  Another says the Symphony #25 is the first great work.

Yes, no?  Other candidates?
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Opus106

Just this morning, while on my way to the bus stop, I was listening to K. 181/ Sym No. 23 and simultaneoulsy wondering why this work wasn't better known. It's likely to score low on the Masterpiece Scale; however, the piece is brilliant, in the sense that it was very upbeat and melodious (as are many of the early syphonies, I can hear you saying), but I felt that this had some extra spice added, what with the S&D influences and all that. It's also a relatively short work (three movements only), all the more reason to be on the 'oft-played' list -- yet, it isn't.

Checking online, I find that this was written in 1773. Wolfie, unless a terrible student, which he wasn't, wouldn't have been in class 7 at the time. But as long as you're including K. entries in the 200s, I might as well throw this into the hat.


Or... maybe I was just in a good mood. Whatever...
Regards,
Navneeth

Cato

Quote from: Opus106 on January 15, 2013, 09:26:01 PM
Just this morning, while on my way to the bus stop, I was listening to K. 181/ Sym No. 23 and simultaneously wondering why this work wasn't better known. It's likely to score low on the Masterpiece Scale; however, the piece is brilliant, in the sense that it was very upbeat and melodious (as are many of the early syphonies, I can hear you saying), but I felt that this had some extra spice added, what with the S&D influences and all that. It's also a relatively short work (three movements only), all the more reason to be on the 'oft-played' list -- yet, it isn't.

Checking online, I find that this was written in 1773. Wolfie, unless a terrible student, which he wasn't, wouldn't have been in class 7 at the time. But as long as you're including K. entries in the 200s, I might as well throw this into the hat.


Or... maybe I was just in a good mood. Whatever...

Many thanks for the recommendation!  One of the mothers stopped in yesterday: her son is a wide-eyed and very silent type, probably Asperger's Syndrome to a low degree, and of average intelligence.  She mentioned that he plays at home anything that I play in our Latin class : Allegri, Bruckner, Mahler, Holst etc.

He had never mentioned this at all, but it was nice to know!  So I will mention this symphony to him and the others.
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Cato on January 15, 2013, 06:36:50 PM
Many thanks for the recommendation of the Orphanage Mass!

One source claims that the Piano Concerto #9 in E-flat Major, K. 271 is his first great work.  Another says the Symphony #25 is the first great work.

Yes, no?  Other candidates?

Well, if you are abandoning the 14 years old requirement, it gets a lot harder (and more subjective!). For every nomination of the 'Little g minor symphony', for example, you will have someone else say that it is only the first movement that is truly original and unique. Generally, people who say "the 9th Piano Concerto" are people who like piano concertos. It IS a fine work, but his first masterpiece?  Maybe not. His last three violin concertos (3 - 5) are superb little works. The Haffner Serenade is, too. He also had a great basketful of masses, operas, other sacred music;  Just a whole lot of things that, if one defines 'masterpiece' as 'something which is superior to its peers in quality', then these will qualify.

:-\

8)
Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)

Cato

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 16, 2013, 04:35:12 AM
Well, if you are abandoning the 14 years old requirement, it gets a lot harder (and more subjective!). For every nomination of the 'Little g minor symphony', for example, you will have someone else say that it is only the first movement that is truly original and unique. Generally, people who say "the 9th Piano Concerto" are people who like piano concertos.

Yes, I am discovering that via Internet searches!  All kinds of disagreements, often based on the type of composition.

There seems not to be a consensus on one work where the budding Mozart suddenly bursts forth with a "Ta-DA!" great work!

"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

mc ukrneal

Moazrt only wrote one GREAT work in his life - the Great Mass in C Minor (K427)! A bit cheeky - I know...
Be kind to your fellow posters!!

Opus106

Quote from: Cato on January 16, 2013, 06:50:20 AM
There seems not to be a consensus on one work where the budding Mozart suddenly bursts forth with a "Ta-DA!" great work!

Maybe it didn't happen that way! :o
Regards,
Navneeth

Cato

#688
Quote from: Opus106 on January 16, 2013, 07:12:19 AM
Maybe it didn't happen that way! :o

Yes, as Gurn noted above, he thinks the opening movement of the Symphony #25 qualifies for greatness, but not the rest of the work.

I have been listening to the Beethoven Piano Sonatas from #1 to #32, and the early ones I am hearing for the first time in my life.  It is interesting that Beethoven sounds like Beethoven, but he was in his mid-20's at that time (mid-1790's).
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Karl Henning

Quote from: Cato on January 16, 2013, 08:16:48 AM
Yes, as Gurn noted above, he thinks the opening movement of the Symphony #25 qualifies for greatness, but not the rest of the work.

If I might discreetly emend, Gurn noted that such an opinion fares abroad, without specifically endorsing the opinion.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Cato

Quote from: karlhenning on January 16, 2013, 08:25:16 AM
If I might discreetly emend, Gurn noted that such an opinion fares abroad, without specifically endorsing the opinion.

Ah yes, that was not his personal opinion.

I will be visiting the library this afternoon to find some of these works, especially the "Orphanage Mass."   0:)
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Cato on January 16, 2013, 06:50:20 AM
Yes, I am discovering that via Internet searches!  All kinds of disagreements, often based on the type of composition.

There seems not to be a consensus on one work where the budding Mozart suddenly bursts forth with a "Ta-DA!" great work!

I used to post frequently on the Mozart Forum, and in fact I posed this question once; i.e. - what was Mozart's first masterpiece?  My own answer was the Haffner Serenade, but despite many other endorsements, there was no definitive first choice. This by people, many of whom listen to nothing but Mozart. I think if we could bring ourselves to listen to much opera seria we would probably realize that a few of his earlier efforts in that genre were superb. :)

8)
Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Cato on January 16, 2013, 09:18:28 AM
Ah yes, that was not his personal opinion.

I will be visiting the library this afternoon to find some of these works, especially the "Orphanage Mass."   0:)

[asin]B000000SBU[/asin]

This is the version I have (Harnoncourt) and I only thought to post it because it is accompanied here by the motet 'Exsultate jubilate', one of the 'other sacred works' that was going through my mind earlier. It really IS a masterwork, albeit a rather brief essay...

8)
Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)

Opus106

Quote from: Cato on January 16, 2013, 08:16:48 AM
I have been listening to the Beethoven Piano Sonatas from #1 to #32, and the early ones I am hearing for the first time in my life.  It is interesting that Beethoven sounds like Beethoven, but he was in his mid-20's at that time (mid-1790's).

Shortly after he had been under the tutelage of one Franz Joseph Haydn. András Schiff in his lectures often keeps reminding the audience, especially when talking about the early sonatas, that despite Beethoven's rather haughty remark to the contrary, there was plenty of the master's influence in his music, especially with regard to musical humour.
Regards,
Navneeth

San Antone

Quote from: Opus106 on January 16, 2013, 09:48:20 AM
Shortly after he had been under the tutelage of one Franz Joseph Haydn. András Schiff in his lectures often keeps reminding the audience, especially when talking about the early sonatas, that despite Beethoven's rather haughty remark to the contrary, there was plenty of the master's influence in his music, especially with regard to musical humour.

Another reason why I generally prefer the early sonatas to the late ones.

:)

Karl Henning

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 16, 2013, 09:29:52 AM
. . . the motet 'Exsultate jubilate', one of the 'other sacred works' that was going through my mind earlier. It really IS a masterwork, albeit a rather brief essay...

And a piece which has practically never left the singers' repertory.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Opus106

Quote from: sanantonio on January 16, 2013, 09:51:29 AM
Another reason why I generally prefer the early sonatas to the late ones.

:)

It certainly presents a side that is not generally associated with Beethoven, and one finds him -- dare I say -- at his melodious best in some of these pieces. Still, the late sonatas represent a different world from which I don't want to be separated.
Regards,
Navneeth

Cato

Quote from: Opus106 on January 16, 2013, 09:59:38 AM
It certainly presents a side that is not generally associated with Beethoven, and one finds him -- dare I say -- at his melodious best in some of these pieces. Still, the late sonatas represent a different world from which I don't want to be separated.

Amen!

And many thanks to Gurn for the Waisenhaus Messe recommendation!
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Karl Henning

Huzzah for our Waisenheimer!
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Cato

#699
Quote from: karlhenning on January 16, 2013, 10:12:13 AM
Huzzah for our Waisenheimer!

Das erinnert mich an folgendes: mögliche Titeln für Opern!

Der Weise Waise

Die Taube Taube

(and more of a stretch)

Der Heimliche Unheimliche

Der Unheimliche Heimliche
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)