Author Topic: mothers in opera  (Read 25480 times)

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Offline knight66

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Re: mothers in opera
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2007, 08:58:30 PM »
Should I chime in about mothers in the output of the best opera composer ever? ;)

NO!

Te he,

MIke
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

Offline knight66

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Re: mothers in opera
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2007, 09:04:01 PM »
Well, despite us trying, there is really very little in the cannon about exemplary mothers, no opera gets called after them. Perhaps there is some Soviet-Comunist tale of a self sacrificing mother saving a collective farm by having herself ploughed into the land in act 3, but no one has mentioned it.

There is a distinct gap in the market. We should construct a storyline, (there are some fertile imaginations around here), then post it on the Composing board and see which of our composers is inspired by it.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

lukeottevanger

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Re: mothers in opera
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2007, 12:21:59 AM »
Nice idea, Mike...

meantime, I'm trying to find a synopsis of Haba's opera Matka (Mother) ;D

Wendell_E

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Re: mothers in opera
« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2007, 01:21:58 AM »
The Valkyries weren't Fricka's. Their mother is Erda.



I've always loved the fact that of the 14 characters in Walküre, 11 are Wotan's kids, none by his wife.  No wonder she's so mad.   ;D


PerfectWagnerite

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Re: mothers in opera
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2007, 04:21:26 AM »
Should I chime in about mothers in the output of the best opera composer ever? ;)

Yeah but didn't we just talked about Wagner?

What about Prince Igor?
Marriage of Figaro?

Don't know about Igor but where is there a mother in Figaro?

PerfectWagnerite

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Re: mothers in opera
« Reply #25 on: April 22, 2007, 04:27:51 AM »
I've always loved the fact that of the 14 characters in Walküre, 11 are Wotan's kids, none by his wife.  No wonder she's so mad.   ;D



Actually I don't remember the libretto saying ALL the Valkyries were Erda's. In Act III of Siegfried Erda says that Brunhilde is her child, no mention of the other 8 rank and file Valkyries. Maybe Wotan mentioned something about this in his longer-than-the-Old-Testament rant in Act II of Walkure but I don't remember.

Wendell_E

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Re: mothers in opera
« Reply #26 on: April 22, 2007, 05:22:47 AM »
Actually I don't remember the libretto saying ALL the Valkyries were Erda's.

It doesn't, but I let it pass, since the libretto doesn't actually say who the mother of the others is.  No, Wotan doesn't mention it in his wonderfully concise précis ( ;)) in act II of Die Walküre.  Like Erda, he does say that that Erda's Brünnhilde's mother, but doesn't mention the others: 

"mit Liebeszauber
zwang ich die Wala,...
der Welt weisestes Weib
gebar mir, Brünnhilde, dich."

His nex lines are:

"Mit acht Schwestern
zog ich dich auf"

Perhaps he just means Halbschwestern, but it's easy to see how one might think the others are Erda's daughters as well.

A couple of people earlier mentioned the Kostelnička in Jenůfa as a bad mother.  I think she's basically a very good mother, who makes one spectacularly bad decision. 
« Last Edit: April 22, 2007, 05:59:04 AM by Wendell_E »

PerfectWagnerite

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Re: mothers in opera
« Reply #27 on: April 22, 2007, 06:08:02 AM »
It doesn't, but I let it pass, since the libretto doesn't actually say who the mother of the others is.  No, Wotan doesn't mention it in his wonderfully concise précis ( ;)) in act II of Die Walküre.  Like Erda, he does say that that Erda's Brünnhilde's mother, but doesn't mention the others: 

"mit Liebeszauber
zwang ich die Wala,...
der Welt weisestes Weib
gebar mir, Brünnhilde, dich."

His nex lines are:

"Mit acht Schwestern
zog ich dich auf"

Perhaps he just means Halbschwestern, but it's easy to see how one might think the others are Erda's daughters as well.

A couple of people earlier mentioned the Kostelnička in Jenůfa as a bad mother.  I think she's basically a very good mother, who makes one spectacularly bad decision. 

Knowing Wotan it is likely that the Valkyries have 9 different mothers.

Maybe someone who knows a thing or two about Norse mythology can tell us whether all the Valkyries have the same mother, since the Ring is based on Norse myths right?

uffeviking

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Re: mothers in opera
« Reply #28 on: April 22, 2007, 06:59:08 AM »
More than once did I try to sort out Wotan's profligate activities without real success; even consultations with the Wagner expert, ACD, still left unanswered questions, - for instance: Did he do it with the Rhinemaidens? - so let's move one to a different scene:

Estonia! Tauno Pylkkänen wrote a powerful opera about Mare and her Son. Mare is trying to save her son's life by betraying his plan to rid the province Livonia of it's tyrant ruler. Her betrayal did indeed save his life, but Imant's failure to kill the tyrant caused him to kill himself, jumping off the castle into the ocean. When the villagers learn of her betrayal Mare is stoned and dying she enters the water to join Imant.

Now there is a legendary mother!  :'(

Offline knight66

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Re: mothers in opera
« Reply #29 on: April 22, 2007, 07:15:57 AM »
Lis, Very good...but is she a good mother or a bad one? I recall someone in complete exasperation at the plot of Romeo and Juliet commenting, "Damned interfering priests"

Perhaps in this case substitute "Mothers". We could put her in both lists. Perhaps Luke will save the day for Motherhood.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

lukeottevanger

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Re: mothers in opera
« Reply #30 on: April 22, 2007, 10:35:36 AM »
Mike

Sharpening my pencils already, Mike...just let me at a libretto! ;D

Offline knight66

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Re: mothers in opera
« Reply #31 on: April 22, 2007, 10:42:24 AM »
I doubt I can plumb my psyche to dredge up any material on a good Mother-figure.....I could do a three act libretto on Mother the Obtuse.

Someone, come on, supply Luke with the wherewithall for his next masterpiece.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

PerfectWagnerite

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Re: mothers in opera
« Reply #32 on: April 22, 2007, 10:42:56 AM »
I got a good mother: Tatyana's mother in Eugen Onegin.

Offline knight66

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Re: mothers in opera
« Reply #33 on: April 22, 2007, 10:47:03 AM »
I don't remember her mother doing anything, she is more of a background figure at best. The question still holds good as we have not really come up with more than a couple of decent mothers who are main characters in an opera.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

Offline squeemu

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Re: mothers in opera
« Reply #34 on: April 22, 2007, 11:07:48 AM »
where is there a mother in Figaro?
Figaro is almost forced to marry his own mother. When it is discovered that she is his mother, she decides to get married to Figaro's father and there is much rejoicing!

Offline knight66

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Re: mothers in opera
« Reply #35 on: April 22, 2007, 11:12:04 AM »
As I recall they were somewhat estranged, so she does not go into the Good Mother room.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

PerfectWagnerite

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Re: mothers in opera
« Reply #36 on: April 22, 2007, 11:19:25 AM »
Figaro is almost forced to marry his own mother. When it is discovered that she is his mother, she decides to get married to Figaro's father and there is much rejoicing!

Oh yeah ! Isn't that wild !

Figaro I think is the funniest opera I have ever heard.

Offline squeemu

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Re: mothers in opera
« Reply #37 on: April 22, 2007, 11:42:19 AM »
As I recall they were somewhat estranged, so she does not go into the Good Mother room.

Mike
This is true, but she seems to have a desire to fix that by the end  ;)

Offline Anne

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Re: mothers in opera
« Reply #38 on: April 22, 2007, 12:21:59 PM »
What about the mother in Il Trovatore?

PerfectWagnerite

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Re: mothers in opera
« Reply #39 on: April 22, 2007, 12:27:51 PM »
What about the mother in Il Trovatore?

She's not a good mother so she doesn't count.