Perfect pitch survey

[lukeottevanger]

Is it possible to imagine tones, melodies, key modulations, harmonies etc. when someone is composing without perfect pitch ? I wonder if Tchaikovsky didn't have perfect pitch, how could he compose such gentle harmonies and artful key modulations ?

Perfect pitch isn't necessary to do the things you imagine - evidently not, because Tchaikovsky didn't have it. Nor, I should add, did plenty of other great composers, including e.g Wagner, who is an even greater example of harmonic empiricism. As Jochanaan has pointed out, most musicians do not have perfect pitch, and the lack of it is not a handicap, especially if, as I imagine all composers do, they have a good sense of relative pitch, which is the really important thing for 'hearing' music internally. To be specific to the case of Tchaikovsky, in addition to a flawlessly developed sense of relative pitch, like all other musicians of his time he had an intimate knowledge of how harmony works, so that he knew how to achieve each harmonic effect that he wanted. These things combined meant that he could still hear exactly what he composed in his head, correct in relation to itself regardless of whether or not he heard it at exactly the right pitch. Though in fact I suspect he worked near a piano, so that he heard it at pitch too. I know that Tchaikovsky used to write down his first thoughts using the baroque technique of figured bass, which demonstrates that he was thinking very much in terms of an established repertoire of harmonic patterns. He seems to have had a preference for certain harmonic sequences, which is part of an explanation of 'the Tchaikovsky sound', just as it is part of the explanation of all composers' personal 'sounds.'

[Renfield]

you do realize that the people who made Oxford dictionary aren't exactly expert in everything they cover... why should i argue with you? you obviously don't like my answer, so you definitely should consult an academic (it helps if his/her field is music) and ask them about it.

I didn't like the style of your answer, in dismissing various issues I asked about offhand like I perceived it as doing. If that was a mis-perception, my apologies.

Still, I do think anyone disagreeing with anyone else could at least bother to explain their point further, and in an objective tone. Otherwise, it's not an argument, it's a competition.


Jochanaan, my thanks for a very informative post! And even more so, for drawing my attention to this "period pitch" business (perhaps responding to a previous post I failed to notice?), which would finally explain what was "wrong" with period performances, during my listening to them so far.

Thank you!

Because I kept wondering if it was some curious placebo and/or minor loss of sanity that made me think Norrington's Beethoven cycle, for instance, sounded lower than it should.

[mahlertitan]

I didn't like the style of your answer, in dismissing various issues I asked about offhand like I perceived it as doing. If that was a mis-perception, my apologies.

Still, I do think anyone disagreeing with anyone else could at least bother to explain their point further, and in an objective tone. Otherwise, it's not an argument, it's a competition.

what do you want me to say? Okay, let's do this again, post your questions again, I'll answer them, that is, if you are willing to listen.

[Renfield]

what do you want me to say? Okay, let's do this again, post your questions again, I'll answer them, that is, if you are willing to listen.

Jochanaan already did. And I appreciate your intent: what didn't sit well with me was the apparent lack of desire to actually discuss the issue at hand, versus what others say about the issue at hand, in an objective manner.

It's nothing to me if we disagree, but everything to me that we should do it "properly".

[mahlertitan]

well, i don't find this topic fascinating at all. But, apparently you do.

[Renfield]

well, i don't find this topic fascinating at all. But, apparently you do.

Fair enough.

[Don]

well, i don't find this topic fascinating at all. But, apparently you do.

The topic is rather boring, but you and Renfield are fascinating.

[jochanaan]

Jochanaan, my thanks for a very informative post! And even more so, for drawing my attention to this "period pitch" business (perhaps responding to a previous post I failed to notice?), which would finally explain what was "wrong" with period performances, during my listening to them so far.

Thank you!

Because I kept wondering if it was some curious placebo and/or minor loss of sanity that made me think Norrington's Beethoven cycle, for instance, sounded lower than it should.

Not at all!  At least, that's not a symptom of whatever insanity might afflict you, or me. I suppose that Norrington was conducting the London Classical Players or some other period group that plays at A415.

One evening I heard the Hummel Trumpet Concerto over the radio--the Wynton Marsalis recording with (I think) the Academy of St. Martin in the Fields, Neville Marriner leading.  The host announced it as "Trumpet Concerto in Eb," which is what I and most others would have expected, but I heard it plainly as being in E, not Eb.  I queried the radio station (KVOD/Denver), and after a day or so they sent me a very nice email.  It turns out that this concerto was originally written in E, and that the Eb version was an arrangement, done to make it easier for Bb trumpets to play the solo part! Mr. Marsalis, who usually plays a trumpet in C, had gone back to the original version.

[mahlertitan]

Not at all!  At least, that's not a symptom of whatever insanity might afflict you, or me. I suppose that Norrington was conducting the London Classical Players or some other period group that plays at A415.

One evening I heard the Hummel Trumpet Concerto over the radio--the Wynton Marsalis recording with (I think) the Academy of St. Martin in the Fields, Neville Marriner leading.  The host announced it as "Trumpet Concerto in Eb," which is what I and most others would have expected, but I heard it plainly as being in E, not Eb.  I queried the radio station (KVOD/Denver), and after a day or so they sent me a very nice email.  It turns out that this concerto was originally written in E, and that the Eb version was an arrangement, done to make it easier for Bb trumpets to play the solo part! Mr. Marsalis, who usually plays a trumpet in C, had gone back to the original version.

see? Perfect Pitch is useful.

[Superhorn]

   I have absolute pitch and I don't find it much of a problem most of the time, but it can be disconcerting hearing period instrument performances at times.
  When I hear a period instrument orchestra playing Mozart's Jupiter symphony the C major sounds like B major. But I've found that my ear can adjust.
  I've heard a recording on harpsichord of the Well Tempered Clavier which sounded a WHOLE tone below modern pitch. Thus, the opening C major prelude sounded like B flat major to me. It was weird.
 
   I've noticed something strange about my absolute pitch at times. When I hear highly complex atonal, 12-tone or serial music with its extreme chromaticism, my ear sometimes become confused and I temporarily lose my pitch sense.  Does any one hear know anything about this kind of pehenomenon?

[Szykneij]

 I've noticed something strange about my absolute pitch at times. When I hear highly complex atonal, 12-tone or serial music with its extreme chromaticism, my ear sometimes become confused and I temporarily lose my pitch sense.  Does any one hear know anything about this kind of pehenomenon?

No, but I've heard it can make you respond to threads that have had no posts in nearly a year!     

[snyprrr]

I was tuning the guitar with one of those circle blowers, and, maybe I've been listening to too much Modern Microtonal Music, but I was having just the time of it getting what I though must be the right pitch, but all these tones were buzzing through my head and I was hearing a big mush, and now I'm just unconfident that my ears know anything when it comes to this kind of stuff.

Anyhow, I didn't read the Thread yet, so I don't know what's been discussed yet, but if anyone has personal experience/input/whatever,... I'm all ears, haha.

[Maciek]

Oddly enough, my music teachers claimed that perfect pitch could be a hindrance for instrumentalists/singers playing/singing in larger groups, because "perfect pitchers" would tend to play/sing the "right" pitch, even when the rest of the ensemble strayed a little. Which can make matters even worse.

Of course, this was a while ago and the memory might be disfigured, but I'm sure that I retained the general gist of what I was told.

For the record, I'm practically tone deaf. I've always had great difficulties with writing down music solely "by ear" (dictation). At least when a single line was to be written. OTOH, give me two voices (was never forced to take down more), and suddenly all my troubles (and mistakes) are gone. Odd? (Again - this was a long time ago, I'm sure today it wouldn't work.)

[bhodges]

Oddly enough, my music teachers claimed that perfect pitch could be a hindrance for instrumentalists/singers playing/singing in larger groups, because "perfect pitchers" would tend to play/sing the "right" pitch, even when the rest of the ensemble strayed a little. Which can make matters even worse.

I have heard this, too, mostly from singers in choirs.  It can be especially problematic in an a cappella piece, when sometimes the entire ensemble drifts up or down a slight bit in pitch.

--Bruce

[karlhenning]

Yes, the heartbreak of choral sag . . . .

[Cato]

I was tuning the guitar with one of those circle blowers, and, maybe I've been listening to too much Modern Microtonal Music, but I was having just the time of it getting what I though must be the right pitch, but all these tones were buzzing through my head and I was hearing a big mush, and now I'm just unconfident that my ears know anything when it comes to this kind of stuff.

Anyhow, I didn't read the Thread yet, so I don't know what's been discussed yet, but if anyone has personal experience/input/whatever,... I'm all ears, haha.

Being trained in microtonality whets (I will not use "sharpen"      ) the ear and makes it more sensitive to the usual 12 tones and their combinations.

Last year our music teacher was playing an electric piano for our school's Passion Play, and I kept getting terrible chills because one of the keys -  the F key in the middle octave - was off.  She had never noticed it, but when I pointed it out and played a scale slowly, the F - somehow - was no longer in tune.  I thought this was impossible on electronic keyboards, but apparently not.

It has taken me years to accustom myself to the dreadful off-key intonations of most pop warblers, screechers, shouters, and young and old yellers!        

When my pianist grandmother and I watched the Beatles on the first Ed Sullivan broadcast, we both looked at each other and shook our heads.

"What's all the fuss about these guys?" she asked.
"I don't know.  They're flat, constantly flat."
"Flatter than pancakes," said Grandma.  And Grandma was never wrong...at least about such things musical!   0:)

I understand that these days rock musicians' voices are electronically manipulated in many cases to place their voices on the right note.

[Cato]

I remembered a story about Arnold Schoenberg in his later years: I do not recall the source, but he commented that he was losing his ability to concentrate on the notes accurately for long periods.

Age interfered with the accuracy of his mental ears.

So far...this has not happened to me!   0:)

[Guido]

I understand that these days rock musicians' voices are electronically manipulated in many cases to place their voices on the right note.

Yes virtually everyone uses that software. It's astonishing how much they can manipulate things these days.

[Cato]

Yes virtually everyone uses that software. It's astonishing how much they can manipulate things these days.

A very strange movie from the 70's, a satire on the rock-n-roll music business (and its audience) using the Phantom of the Opera's plot-line, called The Phantom of the Paradise, shows a scene where the Phantom's voice (a creaking, scarred disaster) is electronically modified into smooth creaminess.

Because the movie mocked the audience it was aimed at, the effort (from Brian DePalma) did not earn much money!   

[Maciek]

I always thought Phantom of the Paradise was a bit of a cult movie? Used to have it on video, wish I had a DVD of it too...