Chopin

[vers la flamme]

Chopin and Liszt are galaxies apart. Their upbringing, their lives, their personalities, their aesthetics --- everything separates them. Even filing them both under "Romanticism" is rather problematic.

Why should "development" be the be-all and end-all of music? I am reminded of Debussy's famous remark on development: "Ah, the development section begins! Good, now I can get out and smoke a cigarette!"

That is a hilarious quote.  Did you make it up, or is he really said to have said that? Certainly right in character for him.

Happy belated birthday to Frédéric Chopin. One of the greatest of all time.

[Florestan]

That is a hilarious quote.  Did you make it up, or is he really said to have said that? Certainly right in character for him.

I've encountered it somewhere. Taruskin, maybe? I'll have to check it but I certainly didn't make it up.

Happy belated birthday to Frédéric Chopin. One of the greatest of all time.

Amen! He's in my top 3.

[vers la flamme]

I've encountered it somewhere. Taruskin, maybe? I'll have to check it but I certainly didn't make it up.

Amen! He's in my top 3.

Do you have a favorite pianist (or a handful of favorites) in his works? I'm looking to expand my limited library of his music. I'm looking at a couple of big sets:







Really, I want them all, because each of these pianists is so unique, but I can't do that to my wallet.

[George]

Do you have a favorite pianist (or a handful of favorites) in his works? I'm looking to expand my limited library of his music. I'm looking at a couple of big sets:



Really, I want them all, because each of these pianists is so unique, but I can't do that to my wallet.

Of those three, I would suggest the Ashkenazy over the others. Still, I would advise against sets. As consistent as Ashkenazy's set is (and I find it to be more than the other two), he is still only great in the Etudes. I feel this is great music that deserves great performances. I posted this elsewhere, maybe it will be of use to you:

Chopin works, pianists and recordings that I enjoy - I have focused on genres that I most enjoy by the composer and within each genre I focus only on complete recordings.

Ashkenazy does splendidly with the Etudes, one of the very best, in fact. He has an earlier set on Melodiya that many people praise, but I find the Decca recording to be one of his best. Pollini's technical prowess is put to superb use in his DG recording of the etudes, though I frequently miss the poetry and beauty that is lacking in his recording. Also impressive is the explosive recording of the Etudes by Gavrilov on Seraphim/EMI. And for a modern recording performed in a manner which couldn't be further from the modern style, I like Kemal Gekic. He is a superb pianist, who had already done a stellar recording of the Liszt Transcendental Etudes before later moving onto the complete Chopin etudes.

Arrau's Nocturnes were my first and still one of my favorites. His playing is gorgeous, with loving care given to every note he plays. The Philips sound is excellent as well. Maria Tipo is excellent as well, well worth seeking out on an OOP EMI 2CD set. Another Maria (Joao Pires) is more dynamic and expressive than anyone that I have heard. I don't listen to her Nocturnes very often, but they are expressive, kind of an early evening Nocturnes, if you will. Moravec's set has been justly praised by just about everyone. His beautiful tone and poetic style makes for some great listening. I recommend the original mastering on a Nonesuch 2CD set, which was mastered by the original producer. Though I am not normally a fan of Ciccolini, I find his set of Nocturnes to be absolutely gorgeous. Unfortunately, they are on an OOP Cascavelle CD set. Rubinstein has three full sets, one from the 30s (my personal favorite by him, mastered by the great Ward Marston and coupled with the 2 concerti with Barbirolli), one from 1949-50 (coupled with the 4 Scherzi) and a stereo version that gets recommended a lot, IMO more because the sound is very good compared to the two earlier sets. Another great OOP set is Wasowski, recorded in 1988 in DDD sound. His is a slower, more introspective take on these pieces that works wonderfully. I have a number of other sets of Nocturnes that I would recommend, but not as a first choice. Ciani's set on DG is performed live. I haven't really got to know the set yet, but I plan to listen to it more, as it comes very highly recommended by those I trust. Weissenberg on an OOP EMI twofer is another enjoyable set, which is a surprise to me, as I wouldn't expect his style to gel with the composer's so well. The Nocturnes are probably my favorite piano works and I am always eager to hear pianists play them, for I find that they are one of those works that people seem to usually play well. I have yet to hear a terrible set of Nocturnes. I guess the pianists love them as much as I do.

For the Mazurkas, Wasowski on Concord Concerto has a wonderful, but now OOP set that I would grab if you see it. It pops up on amazon from time to time. Another pianist I like in this repertoire is Luisada on DG. In fact, I didn't even like these works until I heard him play them. Luisada's is OOP as well, but available on amazon when I last checked. And last but not least, Rubinstein's two mono sets are endlessly imaginative. I enjoy them every time I play them. As to be expected, the second mono set has better sound than the first.

The Ballades are another favorite of mine by Chopin. For these, there are a lot of great recordings. A number of years ago I did a survey of a few dozen sets of these works and I arrived at two favorites. Moravec's Ballades featured slow tempos, dark piano sound, solid technique and sumptuous piano tone, which made for some special readings of these four works. His playing lacked some of Gavrilov and Zimerman's drama, but it certainly wasn't boring by any means. In fact, his set would be my favorite if it weren't for the very special live recording by Maria Tipo. Her intensity and beautiful tone throughout has to be heard to believed. Considering that all of the above performances were studio creations and therefore likely benefited from editing and retakes, her achievement is particularly impressive. The sound of her piano seemed a bit out of tune in the first Ballade, but this annoyance quickly faded into the background as she continued. She was at her best in the third and fourth Ballades, where she played with all the requisite power, along with that special beauty I look for in my Chopin. This OOP Ermitage CD is well worth seeking out. Luckily, the Moravec Ballades remain in print and at budget price.

Speaking of Zimerman, I recently got his set of the Concertos with the Polish Festival Orchestra. The 1999 sound and the incredible performance has made me forget any other version I own. I really think it's that good. And the sound is lovely as well.

The Scherzos were never a big favorite for me, but Pogorelich's DG recording is great. It came highly recommended and I can see why. His technical facility and romantic style fits these works like a glove.

I have collected many recordings of the Preludes. Very few of them seem to get all or even most of the 24 right, IMO. As with the Ballades, I did a survey of over a few dozen recordings of this work (the 24 preludes comprise one opus) and found three recordings to stand out from the crowd: 1. Sokolov (Naive)- An epic performance, with the best finale I have heard. Richter never recorded the complete preludes, but I imagine this is how it would sound if he had. A unique and powerful performance. 2. Moravec (Supraphon)- I had previously thought the much rarer, OOP VAI preludes were better than these, but after comparing them side by side, these are the clear winner. The piano tone is clearer and the playing is alternately more beautiful and more exciting. Tempos here are more common than many of Sokolov's choices. 3. Lucchesini (EMI) - Definitely a surprise for me, as this one never seems to get mentioned anywhere. However, he is remarkably consistent throughout. The recorded sound is excellent and he plays with great sensitivity and clarity. The faster preludes do not disappoint either. As an aside, I highly rate his complete Beethoven sonatas, recorded live on Stradivarius.

The Waltzes are not a favorite of mine, but if I was going to listen to them I would likely reach for Arrau or Rubinstein. Unlike the Nocturnes and Mazurkas, Rubinstein only recorded a set these works once, in 1953.

The Polonaises are also not a favorite of mine, but I'd listen to Cherkassky on DG or perhaps one of the mono Rubinstein sets.

For a set of the three Piano Sonatas, Andsnes on Virgin is excellent. You get all three sonatas and some Mazurkas and Etudes as well. When I studied the second sonata in college I needed to choose a recording to reference in my paper. After comparing him and Rubinstein, I chose the former. Great youthful playing here in nice 1992 sound.

For Historical performances of Chopin, I strongly recommend two pianists - Cortot and Rosenthal. Cortot's are sensitive, poetic performances that make one easily forget about any technical limitations that the pianist had. People don't play the piano like this anymore and it is for this reason that these performances are even more special. If I could go back in time and hear just one Chopin recital, it would be one of Cortot's. Rosenthal also had a special way with Chopin's music. His teacher was a student of Chopin's and his recordings are stunning. They have appeared on Pearl CDs, Biddulph CDs and APR, the latter is still in print, in a box of his complete recordings, all of which are a treasure. Transfers were by Ward Marston.

[vers la flamme]

^Wow, that's a big ol' post. I don't have time to read and reply to it in full at the moment, but I will have to refer back to this when I am looking for individual recordings of chunks of Chopin's works. Thanks for sharing!

The reason I'm looking at full sets in this case has more to do with the idea of exploring the work of a performer than with finding the absolute best recording of a given piece. This is why I've chosen three pianists who sound totally unlike anyone else in this repertoire. I am especially drawn to the Ashkenazy set because it would fill in a lot of gaps in my collection, but then... I have long been meaning to further explore the work of Samson François (a student of the great Alfred Cortot who you mention) and, of course, Rubinstein is Rubinstein.

From what you mention I have a few already; Arrau in the Nocturnes, which I agree is excellent. I have recently bought Andsnes' recording of the sonatas on the strength of someone else's similarly high praise, but so far I am very disappointed, his playing is uninteresting to me. I'll continue listening and see if my opinion changes, as I'm sure you and however many thousands of others who cherish this recording can't be wrong. I really would like to purchase more Moravec Chopin recordings, he is a killer pianist.

[George]

^Wow, that's a big ol' post. I don't have time to read and reply to it in full at the moment, but I will have to refer back to this when I am looking for individual recordings of chunks of Chopin's works. Thanks for sharing!

My pleasure. I adore Chopin so I am always happy to talk about him.

The reason I'm looking at full sets in this case has more to do with the idea of exploring the work of a performer than with finding the absolute best recording of a given piece. This is why I've chosen three pianists who sound totally unlike anyone else in this repertoire. I am especially drawn to the Ashkenazy set because it would fill in a lot of gaps in my collection, but then... I have long been meaning to further explore the work of Samson François (a student of the great Alfred Cortot who you mention) and, of course, Rubinstein is Rubinstein.

Gotcha. The Ashkenazy has the advantage of being complete, so you'll get a lot of works not in the other two sets. It also has better sound than the other two you mention.

From what you mention I have a few already; Arrau in the Nocturnes, which I agree is excellent. I have recently bought Andsnes' recording of the sonatas on the strength of someone else's similarly high praise, but so far I am very disappointed, his playing is uninteresting to me. I'll continue listening and see if my opinion changes, as I'm sure you and however many thousands of others who cherish this recording can't be wrong. I really would like to purchase more Moravec Chopin recordings, he is a killer pianist.

Yeah, they should have done a Chopin box for Moravec. Still, it would be very far from complete. 

[vers la flamme]

My pleasure. I adore Chopin so I am always happy to talk about him.

Gotcha. The Ashkenazy has the advantage of being complete, so you'll get a lot of works not in the other two sets. It also has better sound than the other two you mention.

Yeah, they should have done a Chopin box for Moravec. Still, it would be very far from complete.

Complete or not I'd buy a Moravec Chopin box in a heartbeat. He brings something unique to the table, whether he's playing Chopin, Debussy, Mozart, or anything else for that matter.

Anyway, prompted by your bringing it up, I actually ordered something different of Ashkenazy's Chopin: the Melodiya set of the études. I have long been curious to check out more of Ashkenazy's recordings from his younger days, and this seems to be a highly acclaimed performance. Managed to find a copy for five dollars, so why not?



It also includes a work of Liszt's, one of the Mephisto Waltzes if I'm not mistaken.

[Mandryka]

This has, I think, a very good op 10/3 - full of feeling without any sentimentality.

[Madiel]

I'd emphasise the Ashkenazy is consistent. There's very little indeed that is any way a disappointment in that box.

Sure, you could spend a lifetime hunting down the very best version of every single piece.  But at times here on GMG the perfect is the enemy of the good, and also of your wallet.

[Florestan]

Ashkenazy, Francois and Rubinstein are very good.

I will not burden you with any more recommendations after George's mammoth post but I just have to mention Brigitte Engerer's and Claire Huangci's Nocturnes, Dinu Lipatti's Waltzes as well as the very incomplete but very high quality sets by Tamas Vasary and Stefan Askenase.

The best option for you imo is to get a complete set, either Ashkenazy or Rubinstein --- you can't go wrong with any of them --- and work your way through it. Then for each piece that you particularly like you can seek out alternative performances.

And now that I think of it, the DG complete edition might be a still better option because you get the almost complete works, including piano&orchestra, chamber music and songs. (the only item missing, charming but in no way essential is the Variations for Flute and Piano on a theme from Rossini's La cenerentola.) Take a look at the performers here:

https://www.deutschegrammophon.com/en/cat/4778445?

[Florestan]

you could spend a lifetime hunting down the very best version of every single piece.  But at times here on GMG the perfect is the enemy of the good

So true!

[mc ukrneal]

Of those three, I would suggest the Ashkenazy over the others. Still, I would advise against sets. As consistent as Ashkenazy's set is (and I find it to be more than the other two), he is still only great in the Etudes. I feel this is great music that deserves great performances. I posted this elsewhere, maybe it will be of use to you:

Chopin works, pianists and recordings that I enjoy - I have focused on genres that I most enjoy by the composer and within each genre I focus only on complete recordings.

Ashkenazy does splendidly with the Etudes, one of the very best, in fact. He has an earlier set on Melodiya that many people praise, but I find the Decca recording to be one of his best. Pollini's technical prowess is put to superb use in his DG recording of the etudes, though I frequently miss the poetry and beauty that is lacking in his recording. Also impressive is the explosive recording of the Etudes by Gavrilov on Seraphim/EMI. And for a modern recording performed in a manner which couldn't be further from the modern style, I like Kemal Gekic. He is a superb pianist, who had already done a stellar recording of the Liszt Transcendental Etudes before later moving onto the complete Chopin etudes.

Arrau's Nocturnes were my first and still one of my favorites. His playing is gorgeous, with loving care given to every note he plays. The Philips sound is excellent as well. Maria Tipo is excellent as well, well worth seeking out on an OOP EMI 2CD set. Another Maria (Joao Pires) is more dynamic and expressive than anyone that I have heard. I don't listen to her Nocturnes very often, but they are expressive, kind of an early evening Nocturnes, if you will. Moravec's set has been justly praised by just about everyone. His beautiful tone and poetic style makes for some great listening. I recommend the original mastering on a Nonesuch 2CD set, which was mastered by the original producer. Though I am not normally a fan of Ciccolini, I find his set of Nocturnes to be absolutely gorgeous. Unfortunately, they are on an OOP Cascavelle CD set. Rubinstein has three full sets, one from the 30s (my personal favorite by him, mastered by the great Ward Marston and coupled with the 2 concerti with Barbirolli), one from 1949-50 (coupled with the 4 Scherzi) and a stereo version that gets recommended a lot, IMO more because the sound is very good compared to the two earlier sets. Another great OOP set is Wasowski, recorded in 1988 in DDD sound. His is a slower, more introspective take on these pieces that works wonderfully. I have a number of other sets of Nocturnes that I would recommend, but not as a first choice. Ciani's set on DG is performed live. I haven't really got to know the set yet, but I plan to listen to it more, as it comes very highly recommended by those I trust. Weissenberg on an OOP EMI twofer is another enjoyable set, which is a surprise to me, as I wouldn't expect his style to gel with the composer's so well. The Nocturnes are probably my favorite piano works and I am always eager to hear pianists play them, for I find that they are one of those works that people seem to usually play well. I have yet to hear a terrible set of Nocturnes. I guess the pianists love them as much as I do.

For the Mazurkas, Wasowski on Concord Concerto has a wonderful, but now OOP set that I would grab if you see it. It pops up on amazon from time to time. Another pianist I like in this repertoire is Luisada on DG. In fact, I didn't even like these works until I heard him play them. Luisada's is OOP as well, but available on amazon when I last checked. And last but not least, Rubinstein's two mono sets are endlessly imaginative. I enjoy them every time I play them. As to be expected, the second mono set has better sound than the first.

The Ballades are another favorite of mine by Chopin. For these, there are a lot of great recordings. A number of years ago I did a survey of a few dozen sets of these works and I arrived at two favorites. Moravec's Ballades featured slow tempos, dark piano sound, solid technique and sumptuous piano tone, which made for some special readings of these four works. His playing lacked some of Gavrilov and Zimerman's drama, but it certainly wasn't boring by any means. In fact, his set would be my favorite if it weren't for the very special live recording by Maria Tipo. Her intensity and beautiful tone throughout has to be heard to believed. Considering that all of the above performances were studio creations and therefore likely benefited from editing and retakes, her achievement is particularly impressive. The sound of her piano seemed a bit out of tune in the first Ballade, but this annoyance quickly faded into the background as she continued. She was at her best in the third and fourth Ballades, where she played with all the requisite power, along with that special beauty I look for in my Chopin. This OOP Ermitage CD is well worth seeking out. Luckily, the Moravec Ballades remain in print and at budget price.

Speaking of Zimerman, I recently got his set of the Concertos with the Polish Festival Orchestra. The 1999 sound and the incredible performance has made me forget any other version I own. I really think it's that good. And the sound is lovely as well.

The Scherzos were never a big favorite for me, but Pogorelich's DG recording is great. It came highly recommended and I can see why. His technical facility and romantic style fits these works like a glove.

I have collected many recordings of the Preludes. Very few of them seem to get all or even most of the 24 right, IMO. As with the Ballades, I did a survey of over a few dozen recordings of this work (the 24 preludes comprise one opus) and found three recordings to stand out from the crowd: 1. Sokolov (Naive)- An epic performance, with the best finale I have heard. Richter never recorded the complete preludes, but I imagine this is how it would sound if he had. A unique and powerful performance. 2. Moravec (Supraphon)- I had previously thought the much rarer, OOP VAI preludes were better than these, but after comparing them side by side, these are the clear winner. The piano tone is clearer and the playing is alternately more beautiful and more exciting. Tempos here are more common than many of Sokolov's choices. 3. Lucchesini (EMI) - Definitely a surprise for me, as this one never seems to get mentioned anywhere. However, he is remarkably consistent throughout. The recorded sound is excellent and he plays with great sensitivity and clarity. The faster preludes do not disappoint either. As an aside, I highly rate his complete Beethoven sonatas, recorded live on Stradivarius.

The Waltzes are not a favorite of mine, but if I was going to listen to them I would likely reach for Arrau or Rubinstein. Unlike the Nocturnes and Mazurkas, Rubinstein only recorded a set these works once, in 1953.

The Polonaises are also not a favorite of mine, but I'd listen to Cherkassky on DG or perhaps one of the mono Rubinstein sets.

For a set of the three Piano Sonatas, Andsnes on Virgin is excellent. You get all three sonatas and some Mazurkas and Etudes as well. When I studied the second sonata in college I needed to choose a recording to reference in my paper. After comparing him and Rubinstein, I chose the former. Great youthful playing here in nice 1992 sound.

For Historical performances of Chopin, I strongly recommend two pianists - Cortot and Rosenthal. Cortot's are sensitive, poetic performances that make one easily forget about any technical limitations that the pianist had. People don't play the piano like this anymore and it is for this reason that these performances are even more special. If I could go back in time and hear just one Chopin recital, it would be one of Cortot's. Rosenthal also had a special way with Chopin's music. His teacher was a student of Chopin's and his recordings are stunning. They have appeared on Pearl CDs, Biddulph CDs and APR, the latter is still in print, in a box of his complete recordings, all of which are a treasure. Transfers were by Ward Marston.

Great post.

[George]

Great post.

Thanks!

[vers la flamme]

Ashkenazy, Francois and Rubinstein are very good.

I will not burden you with any more recommendations after George's mammoth post but I just have to mention Brigitte Engerer's and Claire Huangci's Nocturnes, Dinu Lipatti's Waltzes as well as the very incomplete but very high quality sets by Tamas Vasary and Stefan Askenase.

The best option for you imo is to get a complete set, either Ashkenazy or Rubinstein --- you can't go wrong with any of them --- and work your way through it. Then for each piece that you particularly like you can seek out alternative performances.

And now that I think of it, the DG complete edition might be a still better option because you get the almost complete works, including piano&orchestra, chamber music and songs. (the only item missing, charming but in no way essential is the Variations for Flute and Piano on a theme from Rossini's La cenerentola.) Take a look at the performers here:

https://www.deutschegrammophon.com/en/cat/4778445?

I just got the Lipatti Waltzes. Damn good! Good sound for the time too.

Thanks for the advice, that's probably about what I'll end up doing.

[Jo498]

Francois is extremely personal, passionate and usually interesting but the sound is hardly ever good for the period and because of the very personal approach, some pieces might be irritating or less convincing. I'd not recommend it as a first set, but it is highly interesting as a complement to more "straightforward" mainstream interpretations.

I'd say a similar thing about the concertos with Zimerman. They are brilliant and original but quite strange (very slow and micro-managed).

I mostly agree with George on Pogorelich for the Scherzi (although I like the pieces more than he does), Freire on Teldec (1970s) is also good for a more straightforward interpretation, on the Ballades with Tipo (LvB op.109 on that disc is also great), Nocturnes with Rubinstein and Joao Pires and the Preludes with Sokolov and Moravec. Although I would swap the order of recommendation in the last case because Sokolov is somewhat too monumental and slow at times. I actually prefer his Etudes op.25 to his Preludes. Great Etudes are also to be had by Cziffra. There used to be a cheapo 5 disc French EMI (or, I think, also as 10 discs with Liszt making up other half) of Cziffra's Chopin that is highly recommendable.

I also agree that the DG box is a very good collection, if still available and not too pricey.

[j winter]

I know next to nothing about Chopin. A neighbour asked me if I'd like to attend a local cinema showing of a film about Chopin today, as his wife was not interested. Now I know quite a lot about Chopin!
The film is on DVD:

That is indeed an excellent film!  It was recently available to stream on Amazon Prime, not sure if it still is.  The same folks also did similar films on Haydn, Beethoven, and Mozart...

I liked it enough that I picked up Alan Walker's recent biography on Chopin after watching it... I haven't gotten too far into that as of yet, but so far it's quite readable. 

[vers la flamme]

That is indeed an excellent film!  It was recently available to stream on Amazon Prime, not sure if it still is.  The same folks also did similar films on Haydn, Beethoven, and Mozart...

I liked it enough that I picked up Alan Walker's recent biography on Chopin after watching it... I haven't gotten too far into that as of yet, but so far it's quite readable. 

That looks like a must-read, I keep forgetting it exists.

[Holden]

While the Ashkenazy is virtually complete (and I agree it's very consistent) musically I prefer the Rubinstein. If I was going to recommend individual performances I'd go as follows

Preludes: Fiorentino
Etudes: Early Ashkenazy (and I also like Anievas)
Ballades: Moravec
Waltzes: Anievas
Scherzos: Richter
Nocturnes: A toss up between late Rubinstein and Moravec
2nd Sonata: Michelangeli (or Rachmaninov)
3rd Sonata: Lipatti
Polonaises: Ashkenazy has the complete set but for the better known ones maybe Pollini.

I've got heaps of Chopin and probably more recordings of the Etudes than anything else.

[staxomega]

While the Ashkenazy is virtually complete (and I agree it's very consistent) musically I prefer the Rubinstein. If I was going to recommend individual performances I'd go as follows

Preludes: Fiorentino
Etudes: Early Ashkenazy (and I also like Anievas)
Ballades: Moravec
Waltzes: Anievas
Scherzos: Richter
Nocturnes: A toss up between late Rubinstein and Moravec
2nd Sonata: Michelangeli (or Rachmaninov)
3rd Sonata: Lipatti
Polonaises: Ashkenazy has the complete set but for the better known ones maybe Pollini.

I've got heaps of Chopin and probably more recordings of the Etudes than anything else.

Is Michelangeli in the 2nd piano sonata the one on BBC or something else?

[vers la flamme]

Any love for Vlado Perlemuter's late Chopin for Nimbus? I believe Mandryka has heard and enjoyed the Mazurkas, at least. He is an interesting pianist to me, one that I would like to explore.