Chopin

Started by Peregrine, November 25, 2007, 05:58:44 AM

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Jo498

If you want more detail in the orchestra (up to the point of fussiness) with similarly painstakingly detailed playing from the pianist, try Zimerman's second recording where he conducts himself. Also the slowest tempi I encountered in the music, so probably not a first recommendation but quite interesting. (His earlier recordings (with conductor) are more mainstream in style.)
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Jo498

Both are on DG (I think he has been DG exclusive since a long time), I guess you mean the one with Zimerman also conducting?
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Iota

Quote from: Jo498 on July 04, 2020, 12:08:53 PM
If you want more detail in the orchestra (up to the point of fussiness) with similarly painstakingly detailed playing from the pianist, try Zimerman's second recording where he conducts himself. Also the slowest tempi I encountered in the music, so probably not a first recommendation but quite interesting. (His earlier recordings (with conductor) are more mainstream in style.)

I haven't listened to that for years, but I remember when I first got the cd of Zimerman playing/conducting, I did a serious double take when the intro of the First struck up.
At first I thought he must have found a completely new edition or sth, but no, he had just gone back to first principles, and looked at everything anew. And for the first time in my experience, the introduction didn't just sound like a bit of dutiful huffing and puffing before the pianist came in. I found it a striking example of what a fresh, intelligent approach to a piece of music could do to bring it alive. Time to dig it out again I think.

George

Quote from: Iota on July 04, 2020, 02:09:59 PM
I haven't listened to that for years, but I remember when I first got the cd of Zimerman playing/conducting, I did a serious double take when the intro of the First struck up.
At first I thought he must have found a completely new edition or sth, but no, he had just gone back to first principles, and looked at everything anew. And for the first time in my experience, the introduction didn't just sound like a bit of dutiful huffing and puffing before the pianist came in. I found it a striking example of what a fresh, intelligent approach to a piece of music could do to bring it alive. Time to dig it out again I think.

When I moved a few years back and had to downsize, that was the only set of the concertos I brought with me. Never regretted the choice.
"I can't live without music, because music is life." - Yvonne Lefébure

Jo498

It's certainly very special and far more so than his first recordings from the late 70s or early 1980s. I got them accidentally in a DG Chopin box. In fact I have so many recordings of these concertos in boxes, that I would not need any singles. I bought about four separate recordings on single discs: #2 on old instruments (Olejniczak on op.111), #2 with Pogorelich and #1 with Pollini and Argerich respectively. Although I find Pollini/Kletzki a bit lame and keep it more for the "fillers".
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

vers la flamme

Listening now to the Zimerman/Polish Festival recording on DG, on Youtube. Wow, I can see what you mean. Incredibly detailed. This is brilliant, I'll certainly be seeking it out.

Scion7

When, a few months before his death, Rachmaninov lamented that he no longer had the "strength and fire" to compose, friends reminded him of the Symphonic Dances, so charged with fire and strength. "Yes," he admitted. "I don't know how that happened. That was probably my last flicker."

Florestan

#427
Quote from: Scion7 on September 23, 2020, 08:17:30 AM
Chopin: "George who?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FdDLvED_4E

Man, was that a quickie!  ;)

Take that, Yuja Wang!  ;D

Thanks for posting, this is something that Sarge would surely enjoy as much as I did. ;D Could you please post it in the WAYL2 thread with a special note for him?  :D
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

staxomega

I loved this performance of Piano Sonata 3, too bad Eloquence only released it as part of a box.

https://www.youtube.com/v/HE901bAzLg4

Scion7

Nicely played with good sound.  Older recordings are often only found in more expensive boxed sets these days.
When, a few months before his death, Rachmaninov lamented that he no longer had the "strength and fire" to compose, friends reminded him of the Symphonic Dances, so charged with fire and strength. "Yes," he admitted. "I don't know how that happened. That was probably my last flicker."

staxomega

Quote from: Scion7 on September 28, 2020, 03:23:28 PM
Nicely played with good sound.  Older recordings are often only found in more expensive boxed sets these days.

True, I just don't like that the majority of that box is a bunch of piano concertos that will be in poor, historical sound. I don't mind it for solo instrument recordings but I have to really like the performers (ie Furtwangler) to put up with it on symphony music.

George

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on November 30, 2013, 07:15:14 PM
It's funny you should say that George. For years I had a similar problem with Arrau's nocturnes. It got so bad that at one point I finally just sold off the set and said goodbye to ever hearing them again.

But so many people kept saying so many good things about it I eventually caved and re-bought the set. But I STILL didn't get along with it. But years went by and one night I put it on after a long hiatus and *bang* it clicked!

Now I can't fathom what problem I might have had with Arrau's nocturnes. They're so beautifully poetic.

Now, practically speaking I can't say whether this story amounts to anything but all I can say is: time has a funny way of changing perceptions. :) 

It's funny, way back when you said this in response to me posting that I couldn't get into the Freire Chopin Nocturnes and now i have had a parallel experience to yours with Arrrau. About 4 years ago, I gave up on the Freire set altogether and got rid of it. Then, yesterday, I see the set in a used shop for $6 and since I have been on a Nocturne kick lately (Arrau, Moravec, Smeterlin, Weissenberg), I picked it up. I am listening to it now and really enjoying the intimate, gentle way he has with these works. And his tone, the recorded sound is incredible!

Thought you might get a kick out of that! Hope all is well with you, my friend.     
"I can't live without music, because music is life." - Yvonne Lefébure

Madiel

*bump*

It seems that as well as various lost works, there are at least a couple of small pieces that are held by private collectors and have never been available to anyone else for publication or recording.

Is it just me, or does anyone consider that kind of selfishness enraging? It's one thing to own a manuscript. It's quite another to prevent the rest of the world from knowing what's in it.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Florestan

Quote from: Madiel on March 28, 2023, 04:04:42 AMIt seems that as well as various lost works, there are at least a couple of small pieces that are held by private collectors and have never been available to anyone else for publication or recording.

Interesting, but how do we know that? Is there an article or website which deals with the issue in more details?

Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Madiel

Quote from: Florestan on March 28, 2023, 05:36:29 AMInteresting, but how do we know that? Is there an article or website which deals with the issue in more details?



There were a couple of different spots where this came up, I might have to squirrel around to find them again. It probably had to do with my looking at the sheet music volumes of the Chopin National Edition.

But it's nearly 3am and I'm annoyingly awake partly due to a leg cramp....
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Holden

Quote from: Madiel on March 28, 2023, 07:50:32 AMThere were a couple of different spots where this came up, I might have to squirrel around to find them again. It probably had to do with my looking at the sheet music volumes of the Chopin National Edition.

But it's nearly 3am and I'm annoyingly awake partly due to a leg cramp....

Quinine Bisulphate - works for me but will require a script.
Cheers

Holden

Madiel

Okay, so here are the things that led me to my remark.

The commentary for the Chopin National Edition volume of posthumously published waltzes has a section labelled "Works lost, inaccessible and dubious". This has mentions of a few waltzes known from the catalogue that Chopin's sister created after his debt (writing the first few bars), where a full copy is unknown, but then also says the following:

QuoteThere also possibly exists a Waltz in B, the autograph of which Chopin presented to Madame Erskine on 12 Oct. 1848 (name and date on the title page, written in Chopin's hand). However, the manuscript is held in an inaccessible private collection and at the present time its contents cannot be verified.

There is also a website called "piano library" that I use a bit which refers to a Mazurka, of somewhat doubtful provenance, and says:

QuoteThis incipit is from a piece found in an album by Walerian Stopnicki; no more than the incipit has ever been published. According to the catalogue of Krystyna Kobylańska (Frédéric Chopin: Thematisch-Bibliographisches Werkverzeichnis; Henle, 1979), the album is held in the private collection of Jan Tomasz Stopnicki in Warsaw.

I'm less certain about that one because I haven't found mention of it anywhere else amongst all the obscurities and fragments. But when the Chopin National Edition, which is set up to be as authoritative as possible on Chopin, says that it knows about something but can't see it, that's pretty darn exasperating to me.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Florestan

Quote from: Madiel on March 28, 2023, 11:55:38 PMOkay, so here are the things that led me to my remark.

The commentary for the Chopin National Edition volume of posthumously published waltzes has a section labelled "Works lost, inaccessible and dubious". This has mentions of a few waltzes known from the catalogue that Chopin's sister created after his debt (writing the first few bars), where a full copy is unknown, but then also says the following:

There is also a website called "piano library" that I use a bit which refers to a Mazurka, of somewhat doubtful provenance, and says:

I'm less certain about that one because I haven't found mention of it anywhere else amongst all the obscurities and fragments. But when the Chopin National Edition, which is set up to be as authoritative as possible on Chopin, says that it knows about something but can't see it, that's pretty darn exasperating to me.

Thanks, very interesting.

Re the Waltz in B: they say "name and date on the title page, written in Chopin's hand", implying that someone must have seen it at some point, otherwise they couldn't have known the details.

I don't think it's such a big deal, though. From the little information that's available, it can be inferred that those works, if they indeed exist at all, were occasional pieces which Chopin himself did not intend for publication.

Another thought: I'm not familiar with copyright laws, if the owner of a manuscript offers it for publication, isn't s/he entitled to some royalties? If yes, then I reckon those manuscripts, if they exist at all, are sketchy and incomplete, otherwise they would have been a source of income for their owners.

Be it as it may, Chopin's status as a genius is firmly secured and the publication of one more Waltz or Mazurka would add or detract nothing from it.

Just my two cents.
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Luke

Well, except that - and I've only skimmed so forgive me if I'm understanding incorrectly - it would be genuinely late Chopin (very late!) and there's not a lot of that. Every note of it is priceless. Arguably it would also be the only piece he wrote in Scotland, certainly the only substantial one, and it would be of interest from that perspective too

Luke

This (quite creepy!) photo is of Calder House, where Chopin was based during his Scottish tour in late 1848. If he wrote anything at all in Scotland is likely he would have done so there. I took the photo last month at the beginning of my own tour north of the border.