Chopin

[Lethevich]

I think George was listening to one of the PCs in that form a couple of days ago

Woah, it was heroic to have remembered the original question for so long

That disc looks perfect - I don't have a clue how the other pieces will work out, but it should be fun.

[Maciek]

Heroic is my middle name.

[Maciek]

The workings of this thread are a complete mystery (to me).

[zamyrabyrd]

When I was in grade school, the resident piano teacher would round off a concert of his students by asking the audience for a request. This was invariably "Polonaise", understood even without mentioning the composer's name that was probably unknown to most.  I looked forward to this every year and resolved one day to play it myself.

It didn't take long to find out there were other wonderful Polonaises by Chopin when trekking off to the music store to buy my own collection. Fairly recently, I discovered a few more gems by Chopin recently on Askenazy's 2 CD collection, that is, early and posthumously published works.

But a big surprise came yesterday upon finding a Polonaise Op. 72 by Carl Maria von Weber in a French collection of piano pieces. Weber was 24 years Chopin's senior, and his other piano works were surely known to Chopin, like the Sonatas. 

The similarity of form is unmistakeable, A-B-A, with the middle section a kind of trio. But harmonically it is fairly bland even though there are a lot of spirited dotted notes and strings of triplets emulated by Chopin.

Also found on IMSLP is another Grande Polonaise, Op. 21 by Weber, not the deepest music either but clearly shows a precedent to Chopin. 

Now further back in time is a Polonaise Op. 89 by Beethoven with a bravura introduction. This piece is more harmonically compact than Weber who does quite a bit of straying from tonality but not exactly getting back home in a convincing manner.

Chopin, however, is the real master of the Polonaise in every aspect--form and harmony--which I suppose is to be expected...

ZB

[SonicMan46]

Advice & comments!  Reading the current issue of Fanfare (May-June 2010) and the recording below was of great interest:

Chopin - Ballades et al w/ Nelson Goerner on a period piano (Pleyel instrument built in Paris in 1848) - recorded on the Polish Fryderyk Chopin Institute label (apparently being devoted to recording all of his works) - I've not heard of this pianist nor the label - any comments, recommendations, etc?  Thanks all - 

[abidoful]

Well, since no replies are forthcoming from the legion of Polish GMG members, a couple of thoughts from me re the folklore subject:

Is the influence of folklore visible in Chopin's mazurkas? Yes. And very clearly.

Does Chopin ever quote original folk melodies? As far as I'm aware, there isn't a single instance of that.

Does the use of modal scales have anything to do with the folk inspiration? You bet! In fact, I'd say that's where Chopin's originality lies: in adapting folk material he did not cram it into a strictly tonal framework. There were lots of Polish composers who wrote folk-inspired pieces before and after Chopin (especially after) in the 19th century but practically none of them avoided that terrible reef. Moniuszko's folk dances, fine as they are, had been "tamed" by the composer. Even Paderewski's Album tatrzańskie is completely "tonalized"! Not to mention names such as Maria Szymanowska or Karol Kurpiński.

It seems that Chopin was quite determined from very early on creating some kind of a "Polish" style. Just look!
- first his RONDO A LA MAZUR  and TWO MAZURKAS from 1826 (he was 16?!?  ).
- Then in 1828 the POLISH FANTASY with that mazurka finale
- and then followed the wonderful, subtly scored piano-orchestra KRAKOWIAK (I always instinctively felt  that Szymanowski was making a tribute to KRAKOWIAK in his "nationalistic" work for piano and orchestra which similarly starts with piano playing unisono octave-melody in F-major- the SYMPHONIA CONCERTANTE op.60).
Moreover both finali of the G-MINOR TRIO and the E-MINOR CONCERTO are krakowiaks.
And his concertos- particularly the more extended e-minor one- might be seen as a fulfilment of a mission of creating the first truly great Polish orchestral works/ concertos.

I guess early Chopin succeeded being at the same time very nationalistic and Polish and the same time very Europian, and he set an example not only to such later Polish composers like Szymanowski and Lutoswawski but  for other "nationalistic schools" (or generally "national romanticism") in Russia, Norway and Finland.

Schumann wrote in early 1840s that the "nationalistic Polish after taste that clung to most of Chopin's earlier music" seemed to be slowly vanishing. And that exactly was what was happening; He continued composing Mazurkas (Polonaises are in my opinion never nationalistic but "patriotic") but just look how the earlier Mazurkas are much more "nationalistic" than the later ones (apart from few notable exceptions like op. 56/2&3)! Indeed it seems that late mazurkas and waltzes are starting to resemble one another- lol

[Guido]

I officially love Chopin now after hearing Scherzo no.1 and no.2. Amazing.

[Air]

I officially love Chopin now after hearing Scherzo no.1 and no.2. Amazing.

The first scherzo is an incredibly unique and interesting creation.  The second one, fantastic.

[Maciek]

I officially love Chopin now after hearing Scherzo no.1 and no.2. Amazing.

Wow! I think that back in August 2010 I did not visit the forum much, for some reason. And until today I somehow completely missed the fact that this thread had developed somewhat after my last post (in Feb 2010! ). Anyway: Guido, your post, quoted above, blew me away! What a development - and to think I was completely unaware of it until today!

Have you found any more amazing Chopin in the meantime?

Cheers!

And abidoful, I think Chopin's love of folk music might in part be explained by the fact that in his childhood he spent a lot of time in the country, and occasionally went to folk dances. Plus the general fascination with folk culture in Poland in the early 19th century - which might have had a lot to do with the fact that as a country Poland had been wiped off the map and Poles were really interested in understanding (and upholding) their national identity.

[DavidW]

Has anybody bought the PI box set yet?

[asin]B004EQAUZQ[/asin]

If so, is it good?

[karlhenning]

Well, you & I got the Songs disc from that set : )

[Mandryka]

Cutting the dreamy romantic imagination off dead with machine gun fire and bombs seems to be a recurring Chopin theme -- not only in the Op 39 Scherzo but also in the Op 48/1 nocturne. Are there other examples?

[karlhenning]

Has anybody bought the PI box set yet?

[asin]B004EQAUZQ[/asin]

If so, is it good?

Sort-of-pricey but not outrageous . . . I've wish-listed it.

[karlhenning]

Cutting the dreamy romantic imagination off dead with machine gun fire and bombs seems to be a recurring Chopin theme -- not only in the Op 39 Scherzo but also in the Op 48/1 nocturne. Are there other examples?

Gun fire and bombs, eh? I'm not hearin' it . . . .

[Mandryka]

Gun fire and bombs, eh? I'm not hearin' it . . . .

The last quarter of Op 39 where the chorale is attacked -- cut off.

The central section of Op 48/1 there's an anthemic theme which is similarly attacked.

[zamyrabyrd]

Cutting the dreamy romantic imagination off dead with machine gun fire and bombs seems to be a recurring Chopin theme -- not only in the Op 39 Scherzo but also in the Op 48/1 nocturne. Are there other examples?

How about the 2nd Ballade? The pastorale theme is followed abruptly by a Presto con Fuoco, then the first returns, albeit fragmented and constantly interrupted by a restless, chromatic piu mosso, until finally the stormy theme wins out with a tumultous coda, only to have a short quote of the tranquil beginning at the end.

Who are featured in this box set? I'm not so sure that playing Chopin's music on period instruments is any more real than great pianists on excellent Steinways and Bechsteins.

ZB

[Drasko]

Cutting the dreamy romantic imagination off dead with machine gun fire and bombs seems to be a recurring Chopin theme -- not only in the Op 39 Scherzo but also in the Op 48/1 nocturne. Are there other examples?

F minor Prelude.

[Luke]

The Polonaises are the obvious examples (not of the cutting-off, but of the guns and drums and cannons and bombs) and of these the central section of op 44 is a ne pus ultra in Chopin's oeuvre - Rosen spends a long time analysing this very severe and extreme passage - starting on pg 5 of the first score at IMSLP http://imslp.org/wiki/Polonaise_in_F-sharp_minor,_Op.44_%28Chopin,_Fr%C3%A9d%C3%A9ric%29  and sees understanding its import as of significance in locating Chopin's true significance (because the traits that it shows - for instance of a kind of registrally/colouristically delineated counterpoint - are found all over his music but are obscured by the usually more seductive surfaces).

[George]

Has anybody bought the PI box set yet?

You mean, this?

[Mandryka]

Yes -- it's the interruption of dreamy music by the bombs and guns which interests me -- a sort of semantic unit. So I'm not sure that the F minor prelude quite fits the bill Drasko. Unless you are thinking that it interrupts 17. Still . . .

The second ballade is interesting, zamyrabyrd,  because the way most of the records in my collection play it, the guns and bombs is definitely a second episode which just follows on after the end of the pastoral introduction, rather than an interruption of the opening music. I found a couple of  exceptions which I'm going to listen to more carefully -- namely Moiseiwitch (who does all sorts of strange things with the voice leading in the intro, to make it flow relatively seamlessly into the loud music) and Pogorelich in his Chopin competition recording. I've still to listen to Arrau again (tonight!) and I'll just note here that Zimerman plays it wonderfully!

I'll follow through the lead to Rosen. Thanks Luke.

And thanks to everyone for all your help. I like the idea of finding this type of meaningful unit in the music.