Chopin

[Brian]

Does anyone know how Chopin got the idea to make his scherzos so savage? I know the scherzo was a fairly recent invention, but were there any examples of scherzi so violent and discordant? His scherzos push so many harmonic and expressive boundaries, and then generally pull back from "the brink" in the trio sections.

The three minor-key scherzi were written between 1831-1839, only a few years after the deaths of Beethoven and Schubert. Even Schumann seems to have been mystified by their darkness.

Also my post obviously reveals another uncertainty, which is whether I should be saying scherzos or scherzi.

[Mandryka]

I would say that Chopin's 4 Scherzi have nothing much in common with any Scherzos that came before or after. As far as I know noone had called an independent musical piece a scherzo before - all previous scherzi had been part of bigger works. Scherzi tended to be light and fanciful, like minuets. Chopin invented a new musical form and had the audacity, the irony, to call it a scherzo.

[Jo498]

Supposedly Chopin did not much care for Beethoven, but of course there is at least one "dark" scherzo on an even grander scale than any of Chopin's in Beethoven's 9th symphony! And there are several dark and violent scherzi by Beethoven on a smaller scale: in the string quartets op.74, 95 and 130, in the piano sonatas opp. 106 and 109, also the b minor bagatelle from op.126.

But I agree that Chopin's Scherzi are quite original (although the large scale structure is usually quite simple, compared to his Ballades or the Polonaise Fantaisie).

[Brahmsian]

Listening to the Nocturnes this morning.  I have the UTTS condition (uncontrollable toe tapping syndrome). 

[asin]B000031WBV[/asin]

[North Star]

Listening to the Nocturnes this morning.

That's just wrong, Ray. 

[Brahmsian]

That's just wrong, Ray. 

[Madiel]

Any recommendations for the orchestral works? Not just recommendations for the concertos, but also for the Mozart variations, Fantasy on Polish Airs, Krakowiak Rondo and Polonaise.

There's a set by Kun-Woo Paik that looks a bit interesting, there seem to be the occasional good noises about it...

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Any recommendations for the orchestral works? Not just recommendations for the concertos, but also for the Mozart variations, Fantasy on Polish Airs, Krakowiak Rondo and Polonaise.

There's a set by Kun-Woo Paik that looks a bit interesting, there seem to be the occasional good noises about it...

Yes, that Paik set is highly recommendable, the rarities, the concertos...everything (I have it). 

[George]

Any recommendations for the orchestral works? Not just recommendations for the concertos, but also for the Mozart variations, Fantasy on Polish Airs, Krakowiak Rondo and Polonaise.

There's a set by Kun-Woo Paik that looks a bit interesting, there seem to be the occasional good noises about it...

Concertos - Zimerman and the Polish Festival Orchestra

The rest - Seek out the Arrau recordings. They are gorgeous. Not sure if he did them all, but he did most of them.

[Jo498]

I never really cared (but I probably only listened once or twice) to the shorter orchestral works (and for the andante spianato + Grande Polonaise I am satisfied with the solo version), but I have the Arrau recordings in DGs 2010 anniversary box. It's available as a Duo with the concertos.

[Madiel]

The rest - Seek out the Arrau recordings. They are gorgeous. Not sure if he did them all, but he did most of them.

Are these the recordings with Inbal and the London Philharmonic?

(Thanks for the replies, everyone.)

[jlaurson]

Results of the 2015 Chopin Competition are In, Ey!

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2015/10/the-results-of-2015-chopin-competition.html

[(poco) Sforzando]

Supposedly Chopin did not much care for Beethoven, but of course there is at least one "dark" scherzo on an even grander scale than any of Chopin's in Beethoven's 9th symphony! And there are several dark and violent scherzi by Beethoven on a smaller scale: in the string quartets op.74, 95 and 130, in the piano sonatas opp. 106 and 109, also the b minor bagatelle from op.126.

But I agree that Chopin's Scherzi are quite original (although the large scale structure is usually quite simple, compared to his Ballades or the Polonaise Fantaisie).

Even so, the increased range and power of the developing piano gave Chopin the opportunity for a wider range of harmonic and textural effects than any previous works of this type I know. The wild virtuosity required of the soloist goes beyond even the most advanced examples in Beethoven. Either "scherzos" or "scherzi" is acceptable in English.

[Jo498]

There is a lot of later piano music I am not really familiar with (Scriabin, Rachmaninov, Medtner etc.) so I might be missing something  but it seems interesting that there are almost no large scale "stand-alone"-scherzi AFTER Chopin's either. The one exception I am aware of is Brahms' early e flat minor Scherzo.

[El Chupacabra]

Whatever the opinions might be, scherzi are among Chopin's greatest works and tend to exploit the element of instrumental brilliance more than the ballades.
As a brief insight, all the scherzos are in ABA design with a contrasting B midsection. S1's first section recalls the first movement of Op. 35 and the theme is from the Polish Noel. Coda is taxing. S2 requires brilliant fingering technique. S3 is the most dramatic of the lot. It has a chorale-like melody and you need strong fingers. S4 must be the most joyous, poetic. It calls for delicate finger technique and chord playing.

[(poco) Sforzando]

There is a lot of later piano music I am not really familiar with (Scriabin, Rachmaninov, Medtner etc.) so I might be missing something  but it seems interesting that there are almost no large scale "stand-alone"-scherzi AFTER Chopin's either. The one exception I am aware of is Brahms' early e flat minor Scherzo.

And Brahms claimed he knew of no Chopin when he wrote that piece, though I think he was fibbing.

There are Dukas's Sorcerer's Apprentice and Chabrier's Espana, though both of course are orchestral.

[Brian]

And Brahms claimed he knew of no Chopin when he wrote that piece, though I think he was fibbing.

There are Dukas's Sorcerer's Apprentice and Chabrier's Espana, though both of course are orchestral.

Is Sorcerer's Apprentice an ABA scherzo format? If we expand this to orchestral, we have a plenty of examples - Dvorak's Scherzo capriccioso, Suk's superb Scherzo fantastique, minor examples by Lalo and Stravinsky. But Chopin maybe did corner the piano market?

EDIT: I was going to say something about what an interesting discussion this is, but it turns out that I started it a year ago 

[Jo498]

I did not think about these orchestral pieces (I don't think I know the Suk or Lalo, but have heard the others).

Still, it is odd that, say Liszt (Mephisto waltz and similar pieces come pretty close), Rachmaninoff or others did not write solo piano scherzo in the vein of Chopin. They seem such an obvious vehicle for pianistic brillance...

[Ten thumbs]

I would say that Chopin's 4 Scherzi have nothing much in common with any Scherzos that came before or after. As far as I know noone had called an independent musical piece a scherzo before - all previous scherzi had been part of bigger works. Scherzi tended to be light and fanciful, like minuets. Chopin invented a new musical form and had the audacity, the irony, to call it a scherzo.

It does seem that Chopin was the first to turn the scherzo into a major independent form although individual scherzos did exist previously. Apart from examples from for instance, Schubert and Hummel, Mendelssohn experimented with the form in the 1820s until it became, via a 'scherzo-capriccio', the capriccio itself. One possible inspiration was Weber. I recall wrestling with the demonic Menuetto from his first sonata in my youth. This is a scherzo all but in name, as are those in the second sonata, Menuetto capriccioso - Presto assai, and in the fourth, Menuetto - Presto vivace ed energico, both of which are equally vigorous and large scale.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Is Sorcerer's Apprentice an ABA scherzo format?

No, and this is something your own ears can easily tell you, if you hear a substantial middle section in contrasting mood from the repeated outer parts. S'A does not appear to be in sonata form either; it seems rather just to toss its primary themes back and forth in various keys with occasional development material.