Beethoven Missa Solemnis

[Dancing Divertimentian]

I'm still looking for a Missa solemnis to love.

Edward, try this one. Jochum w/ the Concertgebouw from a long OOP Philips set, available only from Arkiv's on demand service (barring the isolated inflated $$ Amazon disc).

It's a recording I introduced André to long ago (where is he, btw) and who's since taken to recommending it highly. His review can be found elsewhere on this thread.

[ccar]

We may discard it because of the typically compacted sound of the 1950's NY Philharmonic, because the soloists are not stellar or stylish enough, or just because this live recording was never credited in any of the official cannons of the critic.

But if you are not addicted to technical perfection and are prepared to experience the Missa Solemnis as an emotional and almost intimate religious experience you may just try it. The Archipel notes refer August 11 1953 but the correct date should probably be November 1953.   



         

     

[Brian]

Are there any thoughts on the Giulini recording on EMI? It doesn't appear to have been mentioned, but it's for $8 at Presto right now. I have not heard the Missa and am seeking a first introduction...

[knight66]

I have mentioned it. It is highly musical, emotional, quite beautiful. But to me it lacks fire. It is reverend. The soloists are very good; it is certainly worth listening to.

Mike

[mjwal]

Knight:

But to me it lacks fire. It is reverend.

I dig. The Reverend Missa Solemnis lacked fire in her inaugural sermon...

[knight66]

Yes, that was a nice typo....think I will leave it alone.

Mike

[ajlee]

Help me find Szell's version!!

Love this work and currently own Klemp's and Bernstein's with CO. But have always dreamed of acquiring Szell's live version with Cleveland. Several members mentioned downloading such recording, so I'm VERY curious as to how you guys got it! I've been searching online for months trying find this recording!

Your help is GREATLY appreciated!!

[ajlee]

By the way, isn't the Missa a work Toscanini always conducted well? There seems to be many versions out there. Which one is the best, all things considered?

Still dreaming about the Szell live version....

[Mandryka]

By the way, isn't the Missa a work Toscanini always conducted well? There seems to be many versions out there. Which one is the best, all things considered?

Still dreaming about the Szell live version....

The Toscanini from the 1930s   is nice because of the  "Agnus Dei", the horn trio, then Kipnis  whose  great cries of "Miserere" are like something out of Boris Godunov.

I'm sure this Boris quality is intrinsic to the music -- not just something Kipnis brings. Just something he does better than anyone else.

My favourite modern  Missa  is Gielen's DVD.

[ajlee]

My favourite modern  Missa  is Gielen's DVD.

That sounds like a great version! I admire Gielen (because of his wonderfully intelligent & exciting Mahler cycle), and his orchestra can play!~

But that DVD is probably quite pricy, tho, no?

[Mandryka]

That sounds like a great version! I admire Gielen (because of his wonderfully intelligent & exciting Mahler cycle), and his orchestra can play!~

But that DVD is probably quite pricy, tho, no?

The sound only is here, for less than $3

http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Missa-Solemnis-Various/dp/B000002X8T/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1287693437&sr=1-2&tag=533633855-20

[ajlee]

Thx for the info!!

[ajlee]

I noticed something interesting after having heard different versions of Missa.

In Klemperer's EMI version, he has the soloists sing the "Pleni sunt caeli...." and "Hosanna....." (in Sanctus), while in other versions it's the entire chorus that sing these lines. Basically, in Klemperer, there's no choral singing in Sanctus until Benedictus.

So what does the score say and who's following the score?? Since more versions do not do what Klemperer does, I guess maybe old Klemp's the one not following the score? Not that I object, since his soloists sing those lines with passion and conviction, and the result is great.

[knight66]

I don't have the full score, but the last time I was learning it the conductor said something to the effect that this is occasionally sung by the soloists, but we will have the choir sing it....which does not mean it was written into the score, it may be tradition, dunno.

I have had a trawl through some sites, but only find mention of the choir singing those passages and I have never heard them sung by soloists.

Mike

[(poco) Sforzando]

So who's following the score??

Klemperer.

[ajlee]

I don't have the full score, but the last time I was learning it the conductor said something[.....]

Hi Mike,

You obviously are a highly trained musician! Are you a singer in a choir or an orchestra member? Because only a highly proficient chorus/orchestra---and conductor---will dare to tackle a monstrous work like the Missa.

[knight66]

I am a singer, 1st Bass. I was in what was then the Scottish National Orchestra Chorus, then also the Edinburgh Festival Chorus and the Scottish Philharmonic Singers. Since moving to England I have only been singing sporadically.

I have sung the work four times. Ironically the first time ought to have been with Maazel with your favourite orchestra in Cleveland; but the orchestra went on strike the day we flew over from Scotland.

Rather later we sang it at the London Proms with Solti and at the Edinburgh Festival with him. Then in Gloucestershire I sang it for Andrew Nethsingha who has recently taken over St John's College Cambridge choir, but who was then the Director of Music at Gloucester Cathedral.

But just last year I sang it again as a member of a local choir which joined up with another choir. My current choir is the second oldest choral society in the country and we at that point had Benjamin Nicholas as choir master. He was an excellent choral trainer and brought the choir to a very good standard and considering there are not even auditions, the results were pretty amazing. I joined the choir specifically to sing the Beethoven.

The London performance with Solti was the most exciting, but the other performances were also memorable.

Mike

[ajlee]

Mike,

.....That is just way too cool! =) It would be like a dream to participate in a performance of this transcendent work.

[knight66]

Missa Solemnis: Lucy Crowe, Jennifer Johnson, James Gilchrist, Matthew Rose: Monteverdi Choir, Orch Revolutionnaire et Romantique, Gardiner, live recording London

This is Gardiner's second recording. His first won prizes, this one probably will, I don't much like it. There are lots of good things here and many people will be happy. I bought it on the strength of ecstatic reviews of the concert. It is very well prepared. The choir is small and that is no problem when the singers are basically professionals with substantial voices. Lucy Crowe is terrific and the final movement gives jolts like no other version.   

The second and third movements do take fire and are propulsive. But listen to Toscanini who manages such speeds with a large choir. That does prove that you don't have to have a small choir to enable such speeds. But the real point I am making here is that for me Toscanini makes my hair stand on end, Gardiner only prompts my admiration.

I very much dislike the modification of vowels, for example 'Gloria'. The word is sung open and raw with mouth wide open and that is a trick to force more sound out, presumably to compete with the orchestra. It is ugly, it happens in an exposed entry in the final movement, where the men sound momentarily out of focus, and here there is no competition with the players. I dislike the tenor who sounds like an English Bleater to me. He is specifically praised in the live reviews: perhaps the microphone does not like his voice. The mezzo is anonymous, the bass, fine.

The Sanctus is robbed of its benedictory essence. The violin is played with minimal vibrato or warmth, it unsurprisingly sounds slightly flat once or twice and the movement fails to provide contemplation, pedestrian.

As I wrote, there are great things here. The phrasing is flexible and the changes of gear in movements two and three are well managed to allow breathing space within the maelstroms. The final movement is revelatory, stark in highlighting the pull of doubt in the hope for peace, the war music cracks the surface more clearly than I have heard.

I predict people will rave about it and as so often: I find myself admiring Gardiner's work more than enjoying it.

I will return to it in a while with lower expectations which might well then be met. I am disappointed.

Mike

[jochanaan]

I noticed something interesting after having heard different versions of Missa.

In Klemperer's EMI version, he has the soloists sing the "Pleni sunt caeli...." and "Hosanna....." (in Sanctus), while in other versions it's the entire chorus that sing these lines. Basically, in Klemperer, there's no choral singing in Sanctus until Benedictus.

So what does the score say and who's following the score?? Since more versions do not do what Klemperer does, I guess maybe old Klemp's the one not following the score? Not that I object, since his soloists sing those lines with passion and conviction, and the result is great.

According to this edition, Klemperer is actually following the score, while others aren't.  But I suspect an error in the edition.  It's not reasonable to expect single singers to be heard over the orchestral tumult of Pleni sunt coeli and Osanna, and while Beethoven did demand much from his singers, he didn't demand THAT much!  The Klemperer recording (which I haven't heard) must have had great recording engineers.