Beethoven Missa Solemnis

[aquablob]

Norbert Gertsch's edition from the new Beethoven-Gesamtausgabe gives only soloists in the Sanctus until the Benedictus. Pending further investigation I'd put my money on that being correct, but Gertsch's critical commentary (which I don't have handy) surely covers this issue if there's controversy surrounding it.

I have several recordings. I'll give them quick listens some time soon and report back.

[mahler10th]

Norbert Gertsch's edition from the new Beethoven-Gesamtausgabe gives only soloists in the Sanctus until the Benedictus. Pending further investigation I'd put my money on that being correct, but Gertsch's critical commentary (which I don't have handy) surely covers this issue if there's controversy surrounding it.

I have several recordings. I'll give them quick listens some time soon and report back.

I look forward to your analysis on the matter.  Our Beethoven would be hoarse with swearing (again) if he thought something was amiss...

[Wanderer]

Missa Solemnis: Lucy Crowe, Jennifer Johnson, James Gilchrist, Matthew Rose: Monteverdi Choir, Orch Revolutionnaire et Romantique, Gardiner, live recording London

This is Gardiner's second recording. His first won prizes, this one probably will, I don't much like it. There are lots of good things here and many people will be happy. I bought it on the strength of ecstatic reviews of the concert. It is very well prepared. The choir is small and that is no problem when the singers are basically professionals with substantial voices. Lucy Crowe is terrific and the final movement gives jolts like no other version.   

The second and third movements do take fire and are propulsive. But listen to Toscanini who manages such speeds with a large choir. That does prove that you don't have to have a small choir to enable such speeds. But the real point I am making here is that for me Toscanini makes my hair stand on end, Gardiner only prompts my admiration.

I very much dislike the modification of vowels, for example 'Gloria'. The word is sung open and raw with mouth wide open and that is a trick to force more sound out, presumably to compete with the orchestra. It is ugly, it happens in an exposed entry in the final movement, where the men sound momentarily out of focus, and here there is no competition with the players. I dislike the tenor who sounds like an English Bleater to me. He is specifically praised in the live reviews: perhaps the microphone does not like his voice. The mezzo is anonymous, the bass, fine.

The Sanctus is robbed of its benedictory essence. The violin is played with minimal vibrato or warmth, it unsurprisingly sounds slightly flat once or twice and the movement fails to provide contemplation, pedestrian.

As I wrote, there are great things here. The phrasing is flexible and the changes of gear in movements two and three are well managed to allow breathing space within the maelstroms. The final movement is revelatory, stark in highlighting the pull of doubt in the hope for peace, the war music cracks the surface more clearly than I have heard.

I predict people will rave about it and as so often: I find myself admiring Gardiner's work more than enjoying it.

I will return to it in a while with lower expectations which might well then be met. I am disappointed.

Mike

Thanks, Mike, for the detailed review! I had this pre-ordered (mainly due to the concert reviews, as you say) and it's on its way to me.

[knight66]

I very much hope you can give a contrasting report on it and thoroughly enjoy it.

Mike

[aquablob]

I look forward to your analysis on the matter.  Our Beethoven would be hoarse with swearing (again) if he thought something was amiss...

Okay, I've sampled some Sancti and here is what I found:


Recordings in which the chorus comes in at "Pleni sunt coeli":

• Giulini
• Eschenbach
• Karajan ('66)
• Levine
• Bernstein (NYPO)
• Bernstein (Royal Concertgebouw)
• Kubelik
• Shaw
• Davis ('77)
• Solti ('95)

Recordings in which the chorus doesn't come in until the Benedictus:

• Zinman
• Gardiner ('90)
• Harnoncourt ('92)
• Klemperer

Recordings in which the chorus comes in at "Osanna, osanna in excelsis":

• Herreweghe

I'll try to look at Gertsch's critical report soon. If I don't follow up here within a week or two feel free to remind me.

[aquablob]

I couldn't find mention of this Sanctus chorus/soloist issue in Gertsch's critical report (though I don't discount the possibility that I overlooked it—my German's nicht sehr gut), but I discovered that William Drabkin actually addresses it in a book I own.

And how convenient!—the relevant passage is freely available on Google Books!

Read from the middle of p. 24 through the end of the section on p. 26: http://books.google.com/books?id=LAXIZOTyUPYC&pg=PA24

Endnote #2, which you can't access there, reads:

I believe that not only the 'Pleni' and 'Osanna' but also the opening 'Sanctus' section should be performed by the full chorus. In Austrian mass settings of the period, the 'Sanctus' was almost always assigned to the chorus, the solo parts entering only in the Benedictus. This was Haydn's procedure in all his later masses (apart from a very small modification in the Missa in tempore belli), and Beethoven's in the Mass in C. Had Beethoven decided on something quite different for the Missa solemnis, would he not have made his intentions absolutely clear in the autograph score?

So it seems that using only soloists until the Benedictus is the most textually literal option, but the composer's intent isn't entirely clear, and there's arguably enough ambiguity in the sources to justify bringing in the chorus earlier in the movement. Probably most conductors who've done so had practical or musical reasons (maybe what jochanaan suggested, for instance). Drabkin, however, goes a step further, arguing for the use of full chorus from the very start of the Sanctus on the basis of firmly established convention. No performance I've heard does that.

[jochanaan]

...Drabkin, however, goes a step further, arguing for the use of full chorus from the very start of the Sanctus on the basis of firmly established convention. No performance I've heard does that.

Interesting!  I'm trying to imagine how that Sanctus might sound with full chorus; they would have to sing very softly--yeah, that might work beautifully; chorus singing sotto voce, especially right at the end, then exploding into full volume at Pleni sunt coeli!  Makes a lot more sense than expecting the soloists to carry the musical weight, and it might explain why there is no specific marking for chorus to enter until the Benedictus.

P.S.  Is there a facsimile of the autograph online?

[aquablob]

The autograph score for the Sanctus (and the Credo and Agnus Dei) is housed at the Staatsbibliothek zu Berlin (cataloged as Artaria 202), but the SBB—unlike the Beethoven Haus in Bonn—hasn't digitized their collection. So I doubt you'll find it online.

They did, however, make microfiche of their Beethoven manuscripts about a decade ago (I think), and copies of that can be found in several libraries in the States: http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/51716959

I might find time to take a look at my local copy and make a few scans, if you're interested.

[jochanaan]

...I might find time to take a look at my local copy and make a few scans, if you're interested.

Just tell us whether Beethoven specified soloists or chorus at the Sanctus' opening.

[aquablob]

Just tell us whether Beethoven specified soloists or chorus at the Sanctus' opening.

Hehe. I guess that's the problem, isn't it?—that he didn't specify.

[Menschenstimme]

Beethoven's Missa Solemnis

Does anyone here own the London CD 4443372 with Sir Georg Solti? I hear a strange sound in the right channel in the Gloria at 0:15. I cannot tell if it is some bizarre digital artifact or an acoustical phenomemon. As far as I know, this is NOT a live recording. The sound is almost as though one of the second violins may be out of sync with the others for a second or two(?).

Thank you!

[aquablob]

I have it and don't hear anything unusual 15 seconds into the Gloria. I listened on speakers (haven't checked with headphones).

[Menschenstimme]

Thanks for checking!
My particular CD may have a minor digital glitch.  I have seen this happen before, where only a particular CD has a problem and another copy of the CD is just fine.  Please note that I am referring only to original store-bought CDs in like-new condition and not burnt CDs.  Also, I believe that my system is probably higher resolution than average.  By the way - the strange sound only lasts about one second.  It is oddly distracting because it seems so out of place.  If this were a live recording - I would go so far as to say that perhaps a large moth or dragonfly flew right in front of the microphone.

I remember something like this happed on a Telarc CD years back.  I contacted Telarc and asked them about it.  They were kind enough to investigate and assured me that I was hearing a loud sharp sniff from the condutor.  Oh well.  Res ipsa loquitur.
Thanks again!

[Menschenstimme]

Following up on what the noise sounds like:
Imagine an analog master tape with a slight irregularity (crease or wrinkle) in the surface.  The noise I am hearing makes me think of this surface flaw passing the tape head.  But please note that this is a DDD recording.  I am only trying to describe the nature of the sound.

And now for something completely different:
Do you prefer the Missa Solemnis sung in "Italian" Latin or "Academic" Latin, aka "German" Latin?  I prefer the Academic Latin with the "G" pronounced as in English rather than like a "J" and the "C" pronounced like an "S" rather than "CH".

[knight66]

I sang it several times in a Italianate Latin, then when in Choir under Solti, he insisted on Germanic Latin. It was easier to penetrate the textures with hard vowels and plosives. I have since been reverted to Italianate. But it is a privilege to sing it any old how.

Mike

[amw]

I prefer actual Latin with the Cs pronounced as Ks and the Vs as Ws.

(Side note: haven't noticed any problems with my copy of the Solti Gloria either)

[Menschenstimme]

I agree with you, AMW, regarding Latin.
The problem with my CD is subtle - you almost have to listen for it - but it is definitely there - at least on my CD it is.

[Menschenstimme]

I just purchased a CD copy on the Naxos label 8.557060 and thus far I am delighted with it.  I will have to listen a few more times to verify my delight.  This recording was made in the USA by somewhat "unknown" artists - as is normal for the Naxos label.  One thing I find a little strange about this recording is that the pauses between the parts of the Mass are abnormally long.  This is NOT a live recording.  I avoid live recordings as best I can.

[knight66]

I junked that performance, as in binned it, as it was impossible to follow long stretches of the bass choral line. I thought it badly engineered.

Mike

[Menschenstimme]

Before I reply regarding a new recording of this work, I will make an additional comment regarding my post that started this thread.  After listening to several different recordings, there is indeed something going in the beginnings of the Gloria that can sometimes manifest as an anomalous acoustical phenonmemon.  It may have something to do with the strings playing off eachother.  Since I do not have the score and would not be qualified to evaulate it if I did have it, I am unable to say more about this.

I just purchased the 2012 recording by Philippe Herreweghe, UPC # 5400439000070, and I am enjoying it very much.  It exhibits an elegant subtlety and economy of scale which brings out the details and the finer points.  My only negative comment regards the packaging.  The booklet is thick; but instead of packaging the CD in a conventional jewel case and enclosing both the jewel case and the booklet in a cardboard outer cover, there is no jewel case and the CD and the booklet are inside one of those cheap cardbard folders with the CD anchored by a very tight center holder which is so tight that one must bend the CD in an unacceptable manner in order to release it.  I will simply keep the CD in a spare jewel case that I have on hand and file the booklet next to it.