Author Topic: Bruckner's cycles  (Read 28135 times)

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Offline gmstudio

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Bruckner's cycles
« on: November 26, 2007, 09:44:43 AM »
I've had this in my shopping cart for a few weeks, and am thinking about getting it:



I don't have a complete set of Bruckner, the closest I have is Cleveland/Dohnanyi, but he didn't finish the cycle.

I like this one because it's about $35 and seems to be getting raves on Amazon...thoughts?

« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 04:56:45 PM by Que »

PerfectWagnerite

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Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2007, 10:12:50 AM »
That's a no-brainer. You might consider this:



which has Skrowaczewski's recording of Sym#0 (not in the EMI box) but is othewise the same as the EMI box.

In any case an obvious first-choice for it's price as a certerpiece of any Bruckner collection.

Offline J.Z. Herrenberg

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Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2007, 11:02:07 AM »
You can't go wrong with this one, IMO - the peroration at the end of the grand Finale of the Fifth, especially, is overwhelming.

Jochum has sometimes been criticised for his brusque tempo changes, but I find he's a very natural Brucknerian.
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Offline Lethevich

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Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2007, 11:20:30 AM »
Jochum has sometimes been criticised for his brusque tempo changes, but I find he's a very natural Brucknerian.

They must be some dumb critics :P His middle-ground tempi are welcome (and as for wild changes, he's hardly van Beinum...) - this ultra-slow-all-the-time stuff is a recent development, and still something of a novelty in the greater scheme.

To answer the original question: this is one of the best cycles, and also one of the best introductions - plus it's the cheapest. Perfect :)
« Last Edit: November 26, 2007, 11:22:55 AM by Lethe »
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Mark

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Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2007, 11:26:37 AM »
How does the EMI set differ from the DG one, and which is preferable? ???

Offline Lethevich

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Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2007, 12:04:44 PM »
How does the EMI set differ from the DG one, and which is preferable? ???

I haven't heard the DG for a while, but to be very simple, and possibly slightly innacurate - the EMI has very slightly better sound, and the brass is more... feisty :P Interps in both seem similar to me.
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mahlertitan

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Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2007, 12:12:32 PM »
How does the EMI set differ from the DG one, and which is preferable? ???

The difference is slight, on one hand you get Berliner and Bavarian, on the other you get S.Dresden. Different orchestras, different sounds, different interpretations... the best thing to do really, is to get them all if you can.

And i agree with the previous posters, you can't go wrong with Jochum, EMI or DG. Although, I TOO, prefer the EMI one over the DG (not saying that DG is inadequate in anyway). But, for 35 dollars, it's a bargain, and be sure to pick up that "0"th symphony and the "00" symphony, either Skrowaczewski or Tintner should be fine.

Offline gmstudio

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Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2007, 12:24:04 PM »
Well, you've all convinced me to part ways with my hard-earned $35.   ;D

PerfectWagnerite

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Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2007, 01:00:04 PM »
I think the Barenboim/Berlin/Teldec set is also very cheap, like around $35, maybe even cheaper in Europe. I guess if you want DDD sound you'll go for that one.

Mark

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Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2007, 01:15:06 PM »
I think the Barenboim/Berlin/Teldec set is also very cheap, like around $35, maybe even cheaper in Europe. I guess if you want DDD sound you'll go for that one.

How is Barenboim with Bruckner? Not as deathly slow as he can be with Beethoven, one would hope.

PerfectWagnerite

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Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2007, 01:23:33 PM »
How is Barenboim with Bruckner? Not as deathly slow as he can be with Beethoven, one would hope.
I haven't heard Barenboim's Bruckner except for his earlier DG 4th and 7th with the Chicago Symphony. I remember #4 being magnificent, scintillatingly good with bold, brassy chorales and powerful strings. Don't remember #7 much though. One thing I know they are NOT slow. I think they are faster or at least in the same ball-park tempo-wise as Chailly, K. Sanderling, etc.. I have been thinking about getting Barenboim's Berlini remake but right now I am not in a big hurry for more Bruckner.

Offline MishaK

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Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2007, 02:11:07 PM »
How is Barenboim with Bruckner? Not as deathly slow as he can be with Beethoven, one would hope.

Barenboim is certainly not on the slow side. Appropriately flexible and romantic, you might say.

I haven't heard Barenboim's Bruckner except for his earlier DG 4th and 7th with the Chicago Symphony. I remember #4 being magnificent, scintillatingly good with bold, brassy chorales and powerful strings. Don't remember #7 much though. One thing I know they are NOT slow. I think they are faster or at least in the same ball-park tempo-wise as Chailly, K. Sanderling, etc.. I have been thinking about getting Barenboim's Berlin remake but right now I am not in a big hurry for more Bruckner.

His Berlin set has a lot going for it in terms of color and atmosphere over the CSO set and the interpretations have gestated a bit from the earlier 70s take with the CSO. The sound from Teldec isn't always ideal (due to being recorded live in the Philharmonie which isn't an ideal recording venue), but some of the discs from that set are among my favorites: 2, 3, 5 and 9 in particular. It's generally a top caliber cycle in every way. Like in many other things, Barenboim tries to find the middle ground between emotion and structure, which means that the cycle may not appeal to everyone, as it is neither purely a driven affair like Jochum, Schuricht or Furtwängler, nor a purely cerebral structural analysis a la Dohnanyi (to exaggerate a slight bit).

The CSO set is also interesing in that it offers a very different Bruckner than what you get from most others. It's youthful, bold and brassy and the climaxes gleam with gorgeous clarity. Yet there is much more warmth and color than Solti ever got in this repertoire. 0 (which Barenboim curiously didn't remake with the BPO), 4 and 9 are among the best, IMHO. The complete cycle is no longer available. I have the original on LP; 4 & 7 are available on a remastered DG twofer, 4, 7 and 9 are available individually on the eloquence label and (I think) 0 and 1 are still around on DG's Galleria label.

Back on topic: I too prefer Jochum EMI over Jochum DG. The interpretations are just a tad more daringly typical Jochum and the orchestral playing is just a notch better, at least as far as the symphonies I have heard from those cycles, which I don't own in complete form.

They must be some dumb critics :P His middle-ground tempi are welcome (and as for wild changes, he's hardly van Beinum...) - this ultra-slow-all-the-time stuff is a recent development, and still something of a novelty in the greater scheme.

It's actually a vaild criticism. Jochum's tempos are not exactly middle ground but tend to the faster side of the spectrum. He has a habit of making accelerandos where none are indicated in the score, or even when Bruckner asks for the opposite. But he's convincing anyway, so few would really fault him for it. I'd have to admit that personally for me Jochum is not first choice, since I look for something else in Bruckner. Jochum prefers to treat Bruckner as if it were a Beethovenian struggle. But in that vein I find Schuricht and Furtwängler more convincing.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2007, 02:25:05 PM by O Mensch »

BorisG

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Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2007, 04:04:15 PM »
The Bruckner set I probably have the fewest disagreements with, is
« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 04:57:13 PM by Que »

mahlertitan

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Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2007, 04:16:59 PM »
The Bruckner set I probably have the fewest disagreements with, is


I think i have it, but haven't listen to it. How is this set?
« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 04:57:36 PM by Que »

PerfectWagnerite

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Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2007, 04:49:15 PM »
The Bruckner set I probably have the fewest disagreements with, is

Fewest disagreements about what? About how boring it is or how good it is?
« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 04:58:04 PM by Que »

Offline Lethevich

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Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2007, 10:30:37 PM »
Jochum prefers to treat Bruckner as if it were a Beethovenian struggle. But in that vein I find Schuricht and Furtwängler more convincing.

I think I went a little overkill in my advocacy for J - you're right, it's certainly not middle-ground in so far as letting the music play itself. I've heard some poor quality mp3 broadcasts of Schuricht in Bruckner, which were engaging despite their low quality, but nothing on CD - could you recommend one?

The Bruckner set I probably have the fewest disagreements with, is


It feels like a complete cliche to agree with this, due to his generally objective style, but this IS one of the least offensive cycles I've heard. It took me a while to try it, because I subconsciously suspected that it may be boring, but it's actually beautifully played and never becomes lethargic - he hardly lets the music play itself, but it does sound more "straight" than Jochum, or Asahina (f.eg.) although I wouldn't call it better. I am probably biased though. The sound quality is also better than Jochum IMO, despite, IIRC, being recorded at roughly the same time - but the sound on J's recordings isn't even approaching a hiderance.

Edit: Sorry for all the edits :P
« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 04:58:35 PM by Que »
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Offline david johnson

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Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2007, 01:55:22 AM »
go emi or brilliant classics for a set.

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Drasko

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Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2007, 01:58:33 AM »
I've heard some poor quality mp3 broadcasts of Schuricht in Bruckner, which were engaging despite their low quality, but nothing on CD - could you recommend one?

No.3 '65 WP is very good but ultimately nothing to write home about (on Preiser)

No.5 '63 live WP is excellent (on japanese Altus or long oop DG)

No.7 '38 BP is one of my favorite 7ths (in best transfer on Profil)
No.7 '64 Hague Philharmonic, very nice, bit sloppy but much better sound (last seen in Scribendum box)

No.8 '63 WP is excellent and probably easiest to find (EMI or Great Conductors double)

No.9 '61 WP is widely lauded but I don't like it one bit
No.9 '43 Berlin State Orch. like it more but sound is primitive (Urania, Arlecchino...)

Of his Stuttgart recordings on Hanssler heard only 5th which isn't competitive with live Wiena one.

Offline Lethevich

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Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2007, 04:39:56 AM »
No.3 '65 WP is very good but ultimately nothing to write home about (on Preiser)

No.5 '63 live WP is excellent (on japanese Altus or long oop DG)

No.7 '38 BP is one of my favorite 7ths (in best transfer on Profil)
No.7 '64 Hague Philharmonic, very nice, bit sloppy but much better sound (last seen in Scribendum box)

No.8 '63 WP is excellent and probably easiest to find (EMI or Great Conductors double)

No.9 '61 WP is widely lauded but I don't like it one bit
No.9 '43 Berlin State Orch. like it more but sound is primitive (Urania, Arlecchino...)

Of his Stuttgart recordings on Hanssler heard only 5th which isn't competitive with live Wiena one.

Wow, thank you very much :D - this will make looking into his recordings much easier. I had heard the Hague 7th (which was better than I expected from an orchestra I hadn't heard of before...) and one of the 9s. I hope a respectable label tries remastering the Berlin 9th - Urania is so horrible, and knowing the, they could be the reason it sounds so bad...
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Offline MishaK

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Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2007, 07:50:53 AM »
No.3 '65 WP is very good but ultimately nothing to write home about (on Preiser)

No.5 '63 live WP is excellent (on japanese Altus or long oop DG)

No.7 '38 BP is one of my favorite 7ths (in best transfer on Profil)
No.7 '64 Hague Philharmonic, very nice, bit sloppy but much better sound (last seen in Scribendum box)

No.8 '63 WP is excellent and probably easiest to find (EMI or Great Conductors double)

No.9 '61 WP is widely lauded but I don't like it one bit
No.9 '43 Berlin State Orch. like it more but sound is primitive (Urania, Arlecchino...)

Of his Stuttgart recordings on Hanssler heard only 5th which isn't competitive with live Wiena one.

What he said. Though I might add that the '63 8th with the VPO is one of the most stupendous and gripping performances of that piece I have ever heard.