Bruckner's cycles

Started by gmstudio, November 26, 2007, 08:44:43 AM

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DavidW

Hey George what do you think of Karajan's 70s cycle? I've heard the 80s cycle, but see that the 70s is so cheap, and possibly better playing?

MishaK

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on July 17, 2009, 04:53:26 PM
What, you need a road map or something? :D

I had no trouble understanding what he meant. Then again I try not to jump to conclusions without first ASKING FOR CLARIFICATION. Try it sometime...

I'm not sure what you think gives you the right to this attitude. He wrote "Solti's orchestra play quite badly." That is prima facie a negative statement about the orchestra, not the conductor. Since Lilas and I have resolved our differences in this point anyway, I'm not sure why you see a need to unnecessarily meddle.

Renfield

Quote from: DavidW on July 17, 2009, 04:58:39 PM
Hey George what do you think of Karajan's 70s cycle? I've heard the 80s cycle, but see that the 70s is so cheap, and possibly better playing?

The Bruckner cycle? There's only one of those via Karajan, spread across the two decades.

MishaK

Quote from: DavidW on July 17, 2009, 04:58:39 PM
Hey George what do you think of Karajan's 70s cycle? I've heard the 80s cycle, but see that the 70s is so cheap, and possibly better playing?

Are there two complete Karajan cycles? I am aware only of one, recorded between 1975 and 1981. see: http://www.abruckner.com/discography/fullsets/

George

Quote from: DavidW on July 17, 2009, 04:58:39 PM
Hey George what do you think of Karajan's 70s cycle? I've heard the 80s cycle, but see that the 70s is so cheap, and possibly better playing?

I have the set that is in the mega-symphony HvK box released recently by DG. It's the 70s cycle. I was dissapointed by it, as I had waited a very long time to finally get it and had read tons of good things in the interim. I just didn't connect with much of it. I am beginning to think that I only like 1960's HvK recordings, as the Beethoven in that set (also 70s) didn't do it for me either.

I prefer Jochum's Bruckner (DG, haven't heard the EMI) for a more traditional interpretation, as his set moved me a great deal more than the HvK.  

DavidW

Oh I was confused, thought there were two cycles.  I guess he only recorded two or three symphonies with the VPO later?

Dancing Divertimentian

Quote from: O Mensch on July 17, 2009, 04:58:54 PM
I'm not sure what you think gives you the right to this attitude.

The same right that gave you the open door to slam Lilas (no pun intended...). ::)

QuoteHe wrote "Solti's orchestra play quite badly." That is prima facie a negative statement about the orchestra, not the conductor.

To you, maybe, but in evaluating the statement I came to exactly the conclusion Lilas intended. AT WORST I would've asked for clarification first before slashing away! :D

QuoteSince Lilas and I have resolved our differences in this point anyway, I'm not sure why you see a need to unnecessarily meddle.

I see nothing that resembles absolution from Lilas on this point! :D :D Just your backtracking to cover your arse...

Anyway, meddling is what I do when I feel someone I respect is being treated unfairly. If that's a crime then sue me...
Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

DavidW

Quote from: George on July 17, 2009, 05:06:17 PM
I have the set that is in the mega-symphony HvK box released recently by DG. It's the 70s cycle. I was dissapointed by it, as I had waited a very long time to finally get it and had read tons of good things in the interim. I just didn't connect with much of it. I am beginning to think that I only like 1960's HvK recordings, as the Beethoven in that set (also 70s) didn't do it for me either.

I prefer Jochum's Bruckner (DG, haven't heard the EMI) for a more traditional interpretation, as his set moved me a great deal more than the HvK.  

That's a huge box set!  You must have been quite disappointed with it to find that consistently you disliked the post-60s recordings.  Or were there alot of 60s stuff in there as well?

George

Quote from: DavidW on July 17, 2009, 05:27:33 PM
That's a huge box set!  You must have been quite disappointed with it to find that consistently you disliked the post-60s recordings.  Or were there a lot of 60s stuff in there as well?

Nope, its all 70s and 80s, I believe. My taste may change, but for now I can clearly hear many of the criticisms that folks have about HvK. Especially the blenderized sound. I also hear a great deal of mellowing in his style (in the 70s and 80s stuff) that I really don't like. I keep wanting the fire from the 60s, but it rarely comes.


Renfield

#109
Quote from: DavidW on July 17, 2009, 05:24:40 PM
Oh I was confused, thought there were two cycles.  I guess he only recorded two or three symphonies with the VPO later?

There are earlier Karajan BPO Bruckner recordings as well, also possibly more recommendable than their equivalents in the cycle.

But yes, the recordings in question are likely the VPO 7th and 8th on DG - though there are additionally an excellent earlier VPO 5th and 9th, and even earlier 8th from the Salzburg Festival to be found (and highly recommended, with the caveat of the recorded sound). :)

DavidW

I'm going to have to contact the poster that had hooked me up with those Karajan recordings to remind me which year I was listening to! :D  All I know was that I liked what I heard.

MishaK

Quote from: DavidW on July 17, 2009, 05:44:51 PM
I'm going to have to contact the poster that had hooked me up with those Karajan recordings to remind me which year I was listening to! :D  All I know was that I liked what I heard.

You can find complete Bruckner discography info here: http://www.abruckner.com/discography

Lilas Pastia

Hey, guys, relax.. ;).

I like to think I'm usually balanced and objective in my opinions, but every now and then, I like to poke ribs as hard as anyone  >:D. So, take my remark about the CSO in that context. No harm done.

Drasko

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on July 17, 2009, 04:03:21 PM
Of those who recorded the whole lot anyway (like Wand, Karajan, Jochum), it should be noted their concerts featured only the works they totally identified with. Which brings us back full circle: why go for a cycle from a conductor who never plays some of the symphonies in concert?

Now I find this much more interesting point than The Solti Epic which developed. Namely, can a musician produce a satisfactory performance/recording of the piece he dislikes? For instance Gunter Wand went on record saying that first and second symphonies are weak (I think he even used the word ill at one point) and that he has absolutely no intention in re-recording them with NDR. I think I had this discussion with M some time ago and seem to recall he argued that it is possible on account of high musicianship, professionalism etc. I think maybe proficient routine performance is possible but without conviction and belief in piece greatness is nowhere near. So why would someone be satisfied with Wand's Koln Bruckner 2nd when can have Stein or Giulini who both believed in piece enough to record it as a standalone.
I'm pretty positive every cycle has an example of this (no conductor likes everything), and not only in Bruckner - Karajan's recordings of Tchaikovsky's first three symphonies are perfect example, proficient routine run-through recordings of pieces he never once played in concert.
Piecemeal is the best way to go in my opinion, my only Bruckner set is Jochum/Dresden mostly because I like the sound of the orchestra (and the cheapness is beyond belief - 15 euros from amazon.de). 

MishaK

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on July 17, 2009, 06:05:09 PM
Hey, guys, relax.. ;).

I like to think I'm usually balanced and objective in my opinions, but every now and then, I like to poke ribs as hard as anyone  >:D. So, take my remark about the CSO in that context. No harm done.

And no offense taken. I thought we discussed our differences quite amicably. Of course, if some want to, Faux News-style, see controversy where there is none, I can't help it.

Quote from: Drasko on July 18, 2009, 01:24:47 AM
Now I find this much more interesting point than The Solti Epic which developed. Namely, can a musician produce a satisfactory performance/recording of the piece he dislikes? For instance Gunter Wand went on record saying that first and second symphonies are weak (I think he even used the word ill at one point) and that he has absolutely no intention in re-recording them with NDR. I think I had this discussion with M some time ago and seem to recall he argued that it is possible on account of high musicianship, professionalism etc. I think maybe proficient routine performance is possible but without conviction and belief in piece greatness is nowhere near. So why would someone be satisfied with Wand's Koln Bruckner 2nd when can have Stein or Giulini who both believed in piece enough to record it as a standalone.
I'm pretty positive every cycle has an example of this (no conductor likes everything), and not only in Bruckner - Karajan's recordings of Tchaikovsky's first three symphonies are perfect example, proficient routine run-through recordings of pieces he never once played in concert.
Piecemeal is the best way to go in my opinion, my only Bruckner set is Jochum/Dresden mostly because I like the sound of the orchestra (and the cheapness is beyond belief - 15 euros from amazon.de). 

Seconded. Too many cycles feel in part like someone just trying to check off boxes for completeness' sake.

George

Anyone know if Celibidache omitted the first two symphonies because he didn't like them?

MishaK

Quote from: George on July 18, 2009, 06:30:57 AM
Anyone know if Celibidache omitted the first two symphonies because he didn't like them?

I am not aware of any quotes of his regarding Nos. 00 through 2, but from context it appears that he considered the 3rd the beginning of the 'real' Bruckner. In the liner notes for his Munich 3rd, the following appears:

"He was especially fond of the Third Symphony: "This is the first manifestation of great, spacious, broad-plane thinking -- incredibly extended -- representing the essence of his later symphonic writing.""

Dancing Divertimentian

Quote from: O Mensch on July 18, 2009, 06:24:48 AM
And no offense taken. I thought we discussed our differences quite amicably. Of course, if some want to, Faux News-style, see controversy where there is none, I can't help it.

Well, hey, it's not my fault you make headlines with your mouth! :D

If you spit in the eye of someone don't be surprised when someone calls you out. That simple.

Anyway, nothing is gained by this petty, under-the-table carping of yours. Either bring it all back out in the open or clam up already...
Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

MishaK

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on July 18, 2009, 08:13:18 AM
Well, hey, it's not my fault you make headlines with your mouth! :D

If you spit in the eye of someone don't be surprised when someone calls you out. That simple.

Anyway, nothing is gained by this petty, under-the-table carping of yours. Either bring it all back out in the open or clam up already...

WTF are you talking about?! I interpreted Lilas' statement by its literal meaning and never attacked him personally, much less spit in his eye. We resolved our disagreement amicably, thereby rendering your rude and uncalled-for intervention completely superfluous. What are you? Some kind of underemployed attack dog? Are you a member of the local Self-Righteous Hypocrites and Amateur Judges Brigade? Unless you have something substantive to contribute on the subject of Bruckner cycles, please take your OT nonsense into some thread in the Diner. If Lilas feels offended by anything I said, I'm sure he can speak for himself.

Dancing Divertimentian

Quote from: O Mensch on July 18, 2009, 08:22:19 AM
WTF are you talking about?! I interpreted Lilas' statement by its literal meaning and never attacked him personally, much less spit in his eye. We resolved our disagreement amicably, thereby rendering your rude and uncalled-for intervention completely superfluous. What are you? Some kind of underemployed attack dog? Are you a member of the local Self-Righteous Hypocrites and Amateur Judges Brigade? Unless you have something substantive to contribute on the subject of Bruckner cycles, please take your OT nonsense into some thread in the Diner. If Lilas feels offended by anything I said, I'm sure he can speak for himself.

Blowing hot air doesn't an argument make! :D Now kindly PM me if it's your intent to pursue this...
Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach