Bach Goldberg Variations

Started by Mystery, December 03, 2007, 10:56:08 AM

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Mandryka

#360
Some questions mostly, I'll leave it for others to propose answers, you'll be able to guess what my answers are easily enough.


Everything in the Rannou turns on the ornamentation: what I mean is, the reason for her tempos is to give her the time to embellish the music.

She plays all the repetitions. Why? What point is she making in the repetitions? Does she give them a structural function? I mean does she make it sound as though each repetition is a valuable step forward towards the end of the set?  Or are they there to show off how she can ring the changes with all those embellishments?

Anyway, how creative is she with all those ornaments? Are too many of them banal?

If the latter then does the piece become a bit becalmed, a bit like hearing 33 independent virtuoso etudes?

On listening you're very conscious of the rubato. Is the rubato there to make a structural point? Or is it there in order to draw attention away from the music and on to the performer?



Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

milk

Quote from: Mandryka on August 30, 2020, 06:06:58 AM
Some questions mostly, I'll leave it for others to propose answers, you'll be able to guess what my answers are easily enough.


Everything in the Rannou turns on the ornamentation: what I mean is, the reason for her tempos is to give her the time to embellish the music.

She plays all the repetitions. Why? What point is she making in the repetitions? Does she give them a structural function? I mean does she make it sound as though each repetition is a valuable step forward towards the end of the set?  Or are they there to show off how she can ring the changes with all those embellishments?

Anyway, how creative is she with all those ornaments? Are too many of them banal?

If the latter then does the piece become a bit becalmed, a bit like hearing 33 independent virtuoso etudes?

On listening you're very conscious of the rubato. Is the rubato there to make a structural point? Or is it there in order to draw attention away from the music and on to the performer?
I see what you mean. It can be more evident on repeated listening. I hadn't heard it in a very long time. Also, The GBV is the Bach piece that I'm most sick of. What would she do with the WTC? Interesting that she's never tackled it. Or the AOF. What does Van Asperen do in AOF differently so as to make his performance of AOF more successful. You may be right and perhaps I should try Hantai or even Leonhardt for comparison.
I'm really sick of Goldbergs - which is sad because they're so inventive - inventive beyond belief. What must people have thought hundreds of years ago if/when they heard them?
BTW, is there any record of early romantics see/hearing them?

ETA: yeah, Hantai is a million times more musical than Rannou. A second listen of Rannou makes her tacky by comparison.

vers la flamme

#362
Thoughts on Mahan Esfahani's recent recording?

Edit: Do the ornamentations on the Aria sound a bit mannered? Or am I just used to hearing them played differently on so many other recordings? I really love the sound of his instrument. Wow.

milk

Quote from: vers la flamme on September 01, 2020, 04:18:19 PM
Thoughts on Mahan Esfahani's recent recording?

Edit: Do the ornamentations on the Aria sound a bit mannered? Or am I just used to hearing them played differently on so many other recordings? I really love the sound of his instrument. Wow.
seems like a very buoyant and snappy performance on a pleasing instrument.

bioluminescentsquid

#364
Quote from: milk on September 01, 2020, 05:19:08 PM
seems like a very buoyant and snappy performance on a pleasing instrument.

I'm having major difficulties with this one - I don't like the harpsichord sound on it (What should be a very beautiful German harpsichord made to sound bright like a Franco-flemish one) and while the playing is indeed elaborate and spirited, it comes off as mannered a lot of times.

For some reason, my tolerance of bright Ruckers-Taskin harpsichord sounds in Bach is getting lower and lower and I tend to gravitate to drier, tangier sounding Germans and also clavichords now.

Wolfgang Glüxam anyone? He recently passed away, a really great harpsichordist that is seldom discussed here.

bioluminescentsquid

#365
Another interesting one - Frédérick Haas, poetic, tons of interesting agogics, almost like Rübsam but not quite as annoying.

Love the cover, by the way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fAIGwlvxEI&list=PLr0MsaDpKsY8-MqiixH_slzoP3qEtEGhj&index=1

(After saying I don't like French harpsichords in Bach, I immediately contradict myself by bringing up 2 recordings on French harpsichords! But both are interesting instruments, Glüxam a Kroesbergen and Haas his famous 1751 Hemsch that is just unimpeachable in sound - besides, both sound leaner than the average modern Grand ravalement Ruckers copy)

BTW, Rannou I don't mind all the ornaments and twiddling and it sounds interesting, at least on the first few listens. The harpsichord used (the famous Anthony Sidey that Leonhardt used in his last concert, if I'm not mistaken) is too bright for me to listen for extended periods though.

milk

Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on September 01, 2020, 08:16:03 PM
Another interesting one - Frédérick Haas, poetic, tons of interesting agogics, almost like Rübsam but not quite as annoying.

Love the cover, by the way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fAIGwlvxEI&list=PLr0MsaDpKsY8-MqiixH_slzoP3qEtEGhj&index=1

(After saying I don't like French harpsichords in Bach, I immediately contradict myself by bringing up 2 recordings on French harpsichords! But both are interesting instruments, Glüxam a Kroesbergen and Haas his famous 1751 Hemsch that is just unimpeachable in sound - besides, both sound leaner than the average modern Grand ravalement Ruckers copy)

BTW, Rannou I don't mind all the ornaments and twiddling and it sounds interesting, at least on the first few listens. The harpsichord used (the famous Anthony Sidey that Leonhardt used in his last concert, if I'm not mistaken) is too bright for me to listen for extended periods though.
how do you feel about Vartolo? I'm going through all these Goldbergs I used to know. Vartolo is really entertaining and he plays a German keyboard. In a way, Vartolo gives the best of many worlds. He projects an improvisatory feeling yet he's musical and very baroque as far as I can tell.
Re: Haas. I think I'm going to give his WTC II a listen. I see this streaming but not Bk1. Did he only record Bk2?

bioluminescentsquid

Quote from: milk on September 01, 2020, 11:18:37 PM
how do you feel about Vartolo? I'm going through all these Goldbergs I used to know. Vartolo is really entertaining and he plays a German keyboard. In a way, Vartolo gives the best of many worlds. He projects an improvisatory feeling yet he's musical and very baroque as far as I can tell.
Re: Haas. I think I'm going to give his WTC II a listen. I see this streaming but not Bk1. Did he only record Bk2?

I was not familiar with Vartolo, thanks for the recommendation. I like the gentle harpsichord sound but his agogics are a little extreme for my taste. Haas is as far as I can go. Sometimes you can be too entertaining.
I'm sure that my taste will change though.

milk

Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on September 02, 2020, 12:14:34 AM
I was not familiar with Vartolo, thanks for the recommendation. I like the gentle harpsichord sound but his agogics are a little extreme for my taste. Haas is as far as I can go. Sometimes you can be too entertaining.
I'm sure that my taste will change though.
Now that I focus, Vartolo seems more natural to me than Rannou. Much more.

bioluminescentsquid

I fail to keep my word again here - another good Goldberg on a Franco-Flemish harpsichord. In this case, it's Andrés Alberto Gómez on a Couchet-Taskin built by Joop Klinkhamer.


https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mqUBNOEAEGeamQR8Mbg7wpVNEFGvqUD8w

Stern, beautiful, middle-of-the-road playing.

bioluminescentsquid

#370
Quote from: milk on September 02, 2020, 03:15:47 AM
Now that I focus, Vartolo seems more natural to me than Rannou. Much more.

Might be because of the speed - it's much harder to get timings right and project a sense of intention at some of the speeds Rannou uses. But I personally think that she's very successful at it, I don't have a sense of things falling apart.

milk

Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on September 02, 2020, 02:54:25 PM
Might be because of the speed - it's much harder to get timings right and project a sense of intention at some of the speeds Rannou uses. But I personally think that she's very successful at it, I don't have a sense of things falling apart.
Something about Rannou strikes me as unserious. I sort of feel bad to say it.

vers la flamme

Thoughts on Leonhardt's Goldberg Variations? I have the later one for Das Alte Werk:



I like it. Pretty straightforward, serious reading on a solid instrument.

I see two others;



Are either of these worth checking out if I have the one? I greatly admire Leonhardt's playing. Traverso put me onto him sometime last year and I've been hooked, he was one of the artists who got me over my hesitations w/r/t harpsichord music.

Archaic Torso of Apollo

Quote from: vers la flamme on September 02, 2020, 04:41:18 PM
Thoughts on Leonhardt's Goldberg Variations?

I have the DHM and I think it's great. Haven't heard the others. There's a discussion of Leonhardt's Goldbergs somewhere in this thread (early 2018 I think).
formerly VELIMIR (before that, Spitvalve)

"Who knows not strict counterpoint, lives and dies an ignoramus" - CPE Bach

Mandryka

#374
Hantai.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

T. D.

#375
Quote from: Mandryka on September 02, 2020, 07:40:35 PM
Hantai.

Which Hantai? I (admittedly with zero expertise on harpsichord recordings) like his old recording on Opus 111 (reissued on Naive), haven't heard the more recent (though not new) Mirare.

milk

Quote from: T. D. on September 02, 2020, 08:38:32 PM
Which Hantai? I (admittedly with zero expertise on harpsichord recordings) like his old recording on Opus 111 (reissued on Naive), haven't heard the more recent (though not new) Mirare.
I think it's his second one that's got the acclaim?

vers la flamme

Seems DHM Leonhardt is the one to get, though I am interested in his earlier Bach Guild recordings.

Thoughts on Pinnock/Archiv?

Mandryka

Quote from: vers la flamme on September 03, 2020, 02:31:44 AM
Seems DHM Leonhardt is the one to get, though I am interested in his earlier Bach Guild recordings.



No repeats
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

André

What is the view on repeats? It seems quite black and white to me: do them all or don't do any. Isn't something lost by either option ?