Bach Goldberg Variations

Started by Mystery, December 03, 2007, 10:56:08 AM

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amw

Nothing is lost by doing all the repeats unless you happen to have a deeply unimaginative artist who plays the repeats identically to one another (or you have someone like Anton Batagov who is maybe too imaginative in his belief that all repeats should be taken at half tempo).

Mandryka

Quote from: André on September 03, 2020, 07:06:13 AM
What is the view on repeats?
This is Glen Wilson waxing eloquent on the subject.

QuoteThe thirty Variations are flanked by the Aria and the Aria da capo, like a long facade with pavilions at each end, making a total of 32 movements. The central axis is marked by Variation 16, a French (!) Overture which opens the second half of the work. All the variations which are multiples of 3 (except no. 30) are canonic, with two upper voices in strict imitation and a free bass line. Variation 3 is a canon at the unison, Variation 6 a canon at the interval of a second, and so on, the interval of imitation increasing by step until at Variation 27 (3x3x3), a canon at the ninth (3x3), the accompanying bass voice drops away. Moreover, the Aria and each Variation is a microcosm of the whole, having 32 measures in two sections of sixteen bars, both to be repeated. In a work of such well-planned proportions, I personally feel there is no alternative to taking all the repeats . . .
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

T. D.

Quote from: milk on September 02, 2020, 11:50:28 PM
I think it's his [Hantai] second one that's got the acclaim?

Doesn't seem to be a clear consensus. Looking at Internet reviews, neither Classicstoday (Distler) nor bach-cantatas/musicweb (both D. Satz) express a preference, though both observe that the interpretations differ.

Mandryka

#383
Hantai 1 -- fluid and sweet
Hantai 2 -- incisive, unrestrained and free


There's a third one -- Hantai 1½ -- from a concert in Rome in 2000, on youtube. He was still doing it in concert pre covid, someone I know who heard him somewhere in France said it's "the best" now.

I must say, listening to Hantai 2 now I'm reminded about how dark it is, affectively. Like it or not, if you're interested in the reception of the music, it's one you should hear.

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

André

Quote from: Mandryka on September 03, 2020, 07:35:58 AM
This is Glen Wilson waxing eloquent on the subject.

Thank you Mandryka. It would seem that to be truthful to Bach's ingenious design all the repeats should be taken, then. That presents a challenge to interpreter and listener, but at the same time the larger perspective may help to appreciate the work's architecture.

vers la flamme

Quote from: Mandryka on September 03, 2020, 03:05:44 AM
No repeats

I meant in terms of Leonhardt's three recordings; the one I have (Teldec, '65) has no repeats, either. I'm cool with it. The only recording I have where all repeats are taken is Rübsam, which bores me to tears.

premont

Quote from: vers la flamme on September 04, 2020, 02:14:00 AM
I meant in terms of Leonhardt's three recordings; the one I have (Teldec, '65) has no repeats, either. I'm cool with it. The only recording I have where all repeats are taken is Rübsam, which bores me to tears.

Leonhardt omits all repeats in all his recordings of the GV. The one I prefer is the Teldec, but others may prefer the DHM. The Teldec is tenser than the more relaxed DHM. The Music Guild from 1952 on a revival harpsichord hasn't got much more than historical interest.
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vers la flamme

Quote from: (: premont :) on September 04, 2020, 02:36:37 AM
Leonhardt omits all repeats in all his recordings of the GV. The one I prefer is the Teldec, but others may prefer the DHM. The Teldec is tenser than the more relaxed DHM. The Music Guild from 1952 on a revival harpsichord hasn't got much more than historical interest.

Is there something wrong with it in particular?

premont

Quote from: vers la flamme on September 04, 2020, 03:27:25 AM
Is there something wrong with it in particular?

No, not wrong as such (except the instrument), but compared to his two other recordings I hear it as being a bit undecided as to style. It doesn't leave that marked individual impression.. Of course Leonhardt afficionados like myself want to have it.

Leonhardt's 1952 GV's was all the same the first recording I got of the work (on LP), and it didn't get me at all. The next I got was Walcha's manic version with all repeats - at times exhausting listening. The third I got was Leonhardt's Teldec recording, and then it clicked with me at once.
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vers la flamme

I like Walcha's Bach on the organ, but haven't heard any of his harpsichord recordings—he made a lot of them, right?

I'm interested in getting another harpsichord Goldbergs (outside of Leonhardt). Currently I'm looking at Pinnock and Esfahani, but there are others to consider.

Anyone heard Belder?

milk

#390
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 04, 2020, 03:08:03 PM
I like Walcha's Bach on the organ, but haven't heard any of his harpsichord recordings—he made a lot of them, right?

I'm interested in getting another harpsichord Goldbergs (outside of Leonhardt). Currently I'm looking at Pinnock and Esfahani, but there are others to consider.

Anyone heard Belder?
Richard Lester takes it slow and I believe does all the repeats - someone can correct me. He's subtle and maybe a bit conservative.

I like Belder. And he plays an attractive instrument. To me, Belder is more deeply emotional. He has attractive ornamentation and he makes interesting choices with tempo. I think what he does is effective in this way.

I have to re-listen to Steven Devine.

Dry Brett Kavanaugh

Quote from: vers la flamme on September 03, 2020, 02:31:44 AM

Thoughts on Pinnock/Archiv?

I like the atmospheric, and somehow esoteric, performance with a big, fat sound. But the performance is old style, and it won't be your main album.

bioluminescentsquid

Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on September 04, 2020, 08:15:43 PM
I like the atmospheric, and somehow esoteric, performance with a big, fat sound. But the performance is old style, and it won't be your main album.

I think there are so many good and interesting recordings of the Goldbergs out there that I can't imagine ever having a "main album" :)

premont

Quote from: vers la flamme on September 04, 2020, 03:08:03 PM
I like Walcha's Bach on the organ, but haven't heard any of his harpsichord recordings—he made a lot of them, right?

Anyone heard Belder?

Yes, Walcha recorded the lions share of Bach's harpsichord works for EMI, recently rereleased in one box. And also one more WTC for Archiv.

Walcha must be called conservative, but his playing is impressive and intense. He is completely his own,

Belder has made two recordings for Brilliant. I only know the first one, which is noble and poetic, one of my favorites. I own the second but haven't listened to it yet.
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premont

Quote from: milk on September 04, 2020, 08:06:04 PM
Richard Lester takes it slow and I believe does all the repeats - someone can correct me. He's subtle and maybe a bit conservative.

I like Belder. And he plays an attractive instrument. To me, Belder is more deeply emotional. He has attractive ornamentation and he makes interesting choices with tempo. I think what he does is effective in this way.


Agree completely about both.
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vers la flamme

#395
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on September 04, 2020, 08:15:43 PM
I like the atmospheric, and somehow esoteric, performance with a big, fat sound. But the performance is old style, and it won't be your main album.

Thanks for your thoughts. I'm still trying to wrap my head around all this. If Pinnock is "old style" and won't be my main album, what's a "new style" recording that could be one's "main album"?

edit: Listening to a bit of Walcha. Surprisingly good! Surely an old fashioned take w/r/t things like tempo, ornamentation. His harpsichord would be what I've heard referred to as a "revival harpsichord", no? All I know is it's an Ammer. It sounds pretty good to my ears, though I'm sure some would say that it's as "wrong" as a piano.

Mandryka

#396
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 05, 2020, 02:45:57 AM

edit: Listening to a bit of Walcha. Surprisingly good! Surely an old fashioned take w/r/t things like tempo, ornamentation. His harpsichord would be what I've heard referred to as a "revival harpsichord", no? All I know is it's an Ammer. It sounds pretty good to my ears, though I'm sure some would say that it's as "wrong" as a piano.

It's the stable pulse which marks it out as dated IMO. It's one thing to set a basic pulse for each variation, it's quite another to never deviate from it.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

premont

Quote from: Mandryka on September 05, 2020, 04:14:44 AM
It's the stable pulse which marks it out as dated IMO. It's one thing to set a basic pulse for each variation, it's quite another to never deviate from it.

Not only the stable pulse only with end of section rubato, but also the absurd fidelity to the score (e.g. no double-dotting, stiff and litteral execution of ornamentation, no variations in repeats) and not the least his uniform touch with no attempt to inflection of individual notes. As someone said, he plays as if he played upon a mechanical tracker organ with a very heavy action.
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Mandryka

Yes there is a bit of rubato at the end of sections, I didn't recall that, it shows one thing though: he didn't quite think the music is the score, his view must have been a little more nuanced than that to admit any rubato.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

premont

Quote from: Mandryka on September 05, 2020, 04:37:54 AM
Yes there is a bit of rubato at the end of sections, I didn't recall that, it shows one thing though: he didn't quite think the music is the score, his view must have been a little more nuanced than that to admit any rubato.

I see his end-of-section rubato as a leftover from the former romantic ways of interpretation, which was what he in other respects reacted against. Interesting enough many other harpsichordists of his generation used end-of-section rubato (Ahlgrimm, Pischner), and even the HIP musicians of to day tend in this direction-  usually in a more subtle way though.
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