Béla Bartók (1881-1945)

[snyprrr]

Can you give a paragraph on why you need Bartok CD's more than heating oil in January?

excellent point!!!!!!

no... no, I can't

[Turner]

A world premiere recording of the complete Bartok "Piano Quartet op.20" from earlier this year:

https://www.thestrad.com/hungarian-treasures--bartok-piano-quartet-in-c-minor-op20-dohnanyi-piano-quartet-in-f-sharp-minor-kodaly-intermezzo-for-string-trio/6814.article
https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/hungarian-treasures-bartok-dohnanyi-kodaly/hnum/5847005

[snyprrr]

Idon't get it. It ALL has "that" sound,... well, except when he's being nice, but,...


I went through the Sonata, Sonatina,,some of this, that,... Kocsis, Ranki, Beroff,... it all just sounds clanky and... and... and...

It'sjust exactly what I don't want,... and I don't have this problem with the Concertos, or any other piano accompaniment, just the SOLO Piano Music. Haven't yet gone through Makrokosmos this time, but everything else I'm just like,... this guy only writes little tiny training pieces and etudes and... and... and...


Someone help me here,... is it that he sounds too improvisatory for me, like Poulenc? I think it's that wayward abandon I'm reacting against.



And then I try the same Pianists in Debussy, and all of a sudden at least I can call it ... oh, I know, this is bad,... "music". Seriously, I'm almost aghast at Bartok's Piano Music, this time it's hitting my ears as the worst sounding stuff ever, just bristling with those minor-seconds in just the places I don't want them...


What's going on here???


Even Mikrokosmos,...3CDs of miniatures... ok, ifI'm in the mood,... but,... but... where's the BIG WORK??? The Sonata? Really?


aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[wolftone]

Someone help me here,... is it that he sounds too improvisatory for me, like Poulenc? I think it's that wayward abandon I'm reacting against.

I think Milton Babbitt talked about what you seem to be talking about, in his writing about Bartok's SQs. I personally don't agree with Babbitt's ontological presumptions but it seems to me that he probably found Bartok's compositions unappealing the same way as I do (and maybe you too snyprrr), at least in some aspects.

To quote Babbitt: "Extreme shifts in purely sonic effect are used to define large formal relationships, while more subtle shifts in tonal balance, often effected through doublings, define smaller sections... Bartok's solution was a specific one, it cannot be duplicated, but the question of whether it can be extended depends largely upon whether or not Bartok has reduced the use of generalized functionality to the minimum point at which it can exert structural influence."

You can read the rest of his paper here, if you haven't: https://unitus.org/FULL/bartokbabbitt.pdf

[Mahlerian]

I think Milton Babbitt talked about what you seem to be talking about, in his writing about Bartok's SQs. I personally don't agree with Babbitt's ontological presumptions but it seems to me that he probably found Bartok's compositions unappealing the same way as I do (and maybe you too snyprrr), at least in some aspects.

To quote Babbitt: "Extreme shifts in purely sonic effect are used to define large formal relationships, while more subtle shifts in tonal balance, often effected through doublings, define smaller sections... Bartok's solution was a specific one, it cannot be duplicated, but the question of whether it can be extended depends largely upon whether or not Bartok has reduced the use of generalized functionality to the minimum point at which it can exert structural influence."

You can read the rest of his paper here, if you haven't: https://unitus.org/FULL/bartokbabbitt.pdf

Babbitt's comments should probably be read in light of the criticisms from Adorno et al in the Schoenbergian camp (but, notably, not Schoenberg himself, though he frequently questioned the value of building an art music on folk elements) that Bartok's music is not worthy of being considered in the forefront of the development of music.  His paper challenges that idea quite effectively.

He also says that the string quartets were a consistently worthwhile and significant addition to the repertoire.  I don't read the comments you posted as a criticism of Bartok, per se, so much as questioning whether his music is a "dead end" in the development of music or whether it contains elements which can be fruitful in future developments.

I should think that the work of Ligeti, among others, has demonstrated the latter quite well, though I don't feel personally that harmony was the strongest element of Bartok's music.

[Mirror Image]

Idon't get it. It ALL has "that" sound,... well, except when he's being nice, but,...


I went through the Sonata, Sonatina,,some of this, that,... Kocsis, Ranki, Beroff,... it all just sounds clanky and... and... and...

It'sjust exactly what I don't want,... and I don't have this problem with the Concertos, or any other piano accompaniment, just the SOLO Piano Music. Haven't yet gone through Makrokosmos this time, but everything else I'm just like,... this guy only writes little tiny training pieces and etudes and... and... and...


Someone help me here,... is it that he sounds too improvisatory for me, like Poulenc? I think it's that wayward abandon I'm reacting against.



And then I try the same Pianists in Debussy, and all of a sudden at least I can call it ... oh, I know, this is bad,... "music". Seriously, I'm almost aghast at Bartok's Piano Music, this time it's hitting my ears as the worst sounding stuff ever, just bristling with those minor-seconds in just the places I don't want them...


What's going on here???


Even Mikrokosmos,...3CDs of miniatures... ok, ifI'm in the mood,... but,... but... where's the BIG WORK??? The Sonata? Really?


aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

From what I've heard of Bartók's piano music, I wouldn't call myself a fan either, but I do love Out of Doors and consider it one of his best works in all of his oeuvre actually. The problem with a lot of the piano music is it ranges from merely pleasant to "Okay, what's the point of this?" I'd say that Out of Doors feels like a thoroughly, well-conceived piece of music on it's own. It doesn't sound like an exercise like a good bit of Bartók's piano music sounds like (Debussy's Etudes comes to mind here, too, as sounding like piano exercises instead of a work that contains a narrative or is trying to convey something). I usually just stick with Bartók's chamber, orchestral, and choral music, and that absolutely fabulous sole opera of his, Bluebeard's Castle. For piano music, I'm finding it rather difficult to hear anything that tops Ravel and Janáček for me.

[wolftone]

Babbitt's comments should probably be read in light of the criticisms from Adorno et al in the Schoenbergian camp (but, notably, not Schoenberg himself, though he frequently questioned the value of building an art music on folk elements) that Bartok's music is not worthy of being considered in the forefront of the development of music.  His paper challenges that idea quite effectively.

He also says that the string quartets were a consistently worthwhile and significant addition to the repertoire.  I don't read the comments you posted as a criticism of Bartok, per se, so much as questioning whether his music is a "dead end" in the development of music or whether it contains elements which can be fruitful in future developments.

I should think that the work of Ligeti, among others, has demonstrated the latter quite well, though I don't feel personally that harmony was the strongest element of Bartok's music.

I did not mean to imply that the writing was a criticism of Bartok's SQs, though in the context of my post it seems to suggest so. I mentioned Babbitt's writing because it might hint at why some might find many of Bartok's works unappealing, though what Babbitt mentions is not necessarily a criticism.

[Mahlerian]

I did not mean to imply that the writing was a criticism of Bartok's SQs, though in the context of my post it seems to suggest so. I mentioned Babbitt's writing because it might hint at why some might find many of Bartok's works unappealing, though what Babbitt mentions is not necessarily a criticism.

Thank you for clarifying.

I will say that of the three "biggest names" of the early 20th century, Bartok, Schoenberg, and Stravinsky, Bartok's music aligns with my taste the least.

[Jo498]

Bartok is by far my favorite of these three. But I admittedly know not enough Schoenberg well enough. I am also a total layman. The main challenger to Bartok among 20th cent. big names for me would be Alban Berg.

[Baron Scarpia]

Thank you for clarifying.

I will say that of the three "biggest names" of the early 20th century, Bartok, Schoenberg, and Stravinsky, Bartok's music aligns with my taste the least.

Debussy, Ravel are not big names? Other than the Concerto for Orchestra, I can't think of something by Bartok that is really "big" in terms of audience popularity.

Anyway, I have mixed impressions of Bartok. I am not attracted to the folk-oriented material, but he did write some spectacular music., particularly the string quartets, the Strings Percussion and Celeste thing, the Concerti, some of the ballets, and suites.

[Jo498]

Not as popular as Boléro of course but Bluebeard, the string quartets, the piano concerto, even the violin concerto have become really standard repertoire pieces. Some others not to such an extent. But hardly anything by Schoenberg (maybe Verklärte Nacht) is as "popular" as lots of Bartok is.

[Baron Scarpia]

Not as popular as Boléro of course but Bluebeard, the string quartets, the piano concerto, even the violin concerto have become really standard repertoire pieces. Some others not to such an extent. But hardly anything by Schoenberg (maybe Verklärte Nacht) is as "popular" as lots of Bartok is.

The question is "big" with who, general audience or fanatics?

[Mahlerian]

Debussy, Ravel are not big names? Other than the Concerto for Orchestra, I can't think of something by Bartok that is really "big" in terms of audience popularity.

Debussy and Ravel are of course big names, and I certainly prefer Debussy to Bartok, but I was speaking of the generation whose style developed in the first two decades of the 20th century.

As you said, Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra is surely his most prominent warhorse at this point, but the Second Piano Concerto and the Second Violin Concerto probably are up there too.

Not as popular as Boléro of course but Bluebeard, the string quartets, the piano concerto, even the violin concerto have become really standard repertoire pieces. Some others not to such an extent. But hardly anything by Schoenberg (maybe Verklärte Nacht) is as "popular" as lots of Bartok is.

Pierrot lunaire, Erwartung, the Six Little Piano Pieces op. 19, Pelleas und Melisande, and the Second String Quartet are performed often enough that they should also be considered standard repertoire at this point.

Are these works popular with the average Classic FM listener?  No, but neither are any of the Bartok works you mentioned.

[Karl Henning]

Kocsis Ranki together in the most interesting Bartok composition

[asin]B00000305I[/asin]

Love this disc!

[Karl Henning]

http://www.youtube.com/v/WTD3Khd3-lY

[amw]

Bartok is by far my favorite of these three.

Same. Main challenges in my case would be Webern & Poulenc (though neither is close; Bartók is very much more important for me as listener and music aligned person in general).

That said, I think people looking for progressivism in harmony, or a consistent folk music basis for a musical style, or anything else "modernist" in nature, is going to have a hard time finding it in Bartók. He is a 20th century Dvořák or Rimsky-Korsakov or etc. Marketing his music as nationalistic was obviously a route to artistic success (and probably aligned with his views to some extent) but it's basically music out of an Austro-German tradition, rooted most strongly in Beethoven etc.

[Karl Henning]

I will say that of the three "biggest names" of the early 20th century, Bartok, Schoenberg, and Stravinsky, Bartok's music aligns with my taste the least.

Bartok is by far my favorite of these three.

I could not designate a favorite from among these three, any more than I could express a preference among prosciutto, bok choy, and mango.

[amw]

any more than I could express a preference among prosciutto, bok choy, and mango.

Mango by a wide margin here. Though I actually like hummus even better.

[Baron Scarpia]

Mango by a wide margin here. Though I actually like hummus even better.

prosciutto

[Karl Henning]

My solitude no longer surprises me