Béla Bartók (1881-1945)

[Baron Scarpia]

I can't hear laurel at all in that clip.

The Bartók Boulez series has.... very typical DG early digital sound, ie, kind of artificial sounding but not awful. What I'd consider "good sound" in Bartók is like, the Ozawa/Saito Kinen Orchestra CfO & Strings Percussion Celesta Music on Philips, or the Kocsis Hungarian State Orchestra series on Hungaroton in the "Bartók New Series"

Artificial is a word I would use to describe it, typical of their "4D" recordings.

[aukhawk]

The stated aim of 4D - according to DG's sleevenotes - was to reduce the background 'system' noise associated with all electronic recording processes, and particularly the noise introduced by long mic cable runs in big spaces.  This is all well and good but it's a completely pointless exercise since in any good system this noise is already much lower level than 'natural' auditorium ambience (air-con, 90 breathing musicians, distant muffled traffic and nesting birds, etc) which is all part and parcel of a recording of 'an orchestra'.  The only way to get a tangible or even measurable difference would be to use close multi-miking techniques, thus eliminating the ambience at the point of recording (and replacing it later) - so I guess that's what they did.
I like it - but you couldn't call it natural.

[Baron Scarpia]

I think the tangible difference was to allow them to increase the number of microphones that could practically be used,  My ideal is natural sound, so it made the sound worse, according to my taste. The mercury array or the old Decca tree was best.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

Latest on ClassicsToday:


A Charismatic Bartók-Surprise From Munich

[pjme]

It is cold, very windy and rainy in the Low Countries. 
This scintillating score, however, worked its uplifting magic immediately:


Splendid!

[bhodges]

On Seen and Heard International, my review of Iván Fischer and the Budapest Festival Orchestra in two extraordinary Bartók evenings at Carnegie Hall. Really great, some of the best of the year (so far).

http://seenandheard-international.com/2019/04/fischer-and-budapest-combine-bartok-pedagogy-and-virtuosity/

--Bruce

[vers la flamme]

Wow, no Bartók talk in over a year. What gives? 

I have long struggled to enjoy the music of Bartók with a few exceptions: I fell in love with Bluebeard's Castle at first listen, both music and words—I found the story and the protagonist surprisingly relatable—and I think his 6 string quartets are a phenomenal body of work with much depth to them. I have had less success with his orchestral music. I like Music for Strings, Percussion & Celesta but I don't love it. Ditto for the Concerto for Orchestra, I often find myself getting bored with it (I probably just haven't heard the right recording in both cases).

Anyway, I recently got the piano concertos, Géza Anda, Ferenc Fricsay, RSO Berlin and have been enjoying it immensely. These are incredible works, up there with the best in the genre of their century. Anyone else been listening to these works lately? I just finished the second concerto, which I found to be the most challenging of the three on account of the huge, expansive, expressive slow movement, but I enjoyed it a lot. The first and third are much easier to grasp. Finally, I see these works as spiritual cousins to the five Prokofiev piano concertos, which I have been exploring simultaneously. In fact I may take a break from one or the other to avoid conflating them in my mind at such a crucial time in my exploration of this music.

Anyone else been listening to Bartók lately, the piano concertos or otherwise?

PS. What's a good recording of Bluebeard? I actually do not have one. The one I heard was Doráti/LSO and that's the one I will probably get, but I will try and explore other avenues first. The Boulez/Sony appears to be pretty well liked.

[Mirror Image]

Wow, no Bartók talk in over a year. What gives? 

I have long struggled to enjoy the music of Bartók with a few exceptions: I fell in love with Bluebeard's Castle at first listen, both music and words—I found the story and the protagonist surprisingly relatable—and I think his 6 string quartets are a phenomenal body of work with much depth to them. I have had less success with his orchestral music. I like Music for Strings, Percussion & Celesta but I don't love it. Ditto for the Concerto for Orchestra, I often find myself getting bored with it (I probably just haven't heard the right recording in both cases).

Anyway, I recently got the piano concertos, Géza Anda, Ferenc Fricsay, RSO Berlin and have been enjoying it immensely. These are incredible works, up there with the best in the genre of their century. Anyone else been listening to these works lately? I just finished the second concerto, which I found to be the most challenging of the three on account of the huge, expansive, expressive slow movement, but I enjoyed it a lot. The first and third are much easier to grasp. Finally, I see these works as spiritual cousins to the five Prokofiev piano concertos, which I have been exploring simultaneously. In fact I may take a break from one or the other to avoid conflating them in my mind at such a crucial time in my exploration of this music.

Anyone else been listening to Bartók lately, the piano concertos or otherwise?

PS. What's a good recording of Bluebeard? I actually do not have one. The one I heard was Doráti/LSO and that's the one I will probably get, but I will try and explore other avenues first. The Boulez/Sony appears to be pretty well liked.

Bartók is, of course, one of my favorites (in my own 'Top 3' along with Debussy and Ravel). The 2nd Piano Concerto is actually my favorite of the three. That slow movement of this 2nd PC is largely characteristic of his 'night music'. If you don't know about this kind of music that he wrote please do look it up --- I think there's a Wikipedia article written exclusively about Bartók's night music. I think one of the keys to understanding his orchestral music is listening to The Miraculous Mandarin. Once you get your teeth into this ballet, then everything else is much easier, IMHO. The Miraculous Mandarin is one of my favorites from him and I love the Modernist edge the music has to it. It's quite a contrast with his other more folkish ballet, The Wooden Prince, which is also quite fine and, IMHO, underrated. The best Bluebeard's Castle performances I know are Boulez on Columbia (Sony) and Kertész on Decca. Both of these performances are stellar and much better than any other performances I've heard, although I did like Haitink's recording on EMI (this may prove a tougher recording to track down for a good price since it's OOP). Yes, the SQs are incredible and an important body of work, but there's a lot of great solo piano music that you should check out, too, like Out of Doors or the Piano Sonata for example. There's  a good bit of choral music that's worth looking into, but recordings of this part of his oeuvre are more difficult to come by, but most of it (if all) has been recorded on the Hungaroton label. Anyway, keep listening to his music. I think one day all of it will finally click for you. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not a great fan of the Concerto for Orchestra, but the earlier Boulez account is scintillating and made me appreciate the work more than I have in the past.

[vers la flamme]

Bartók is, of course, one of my favorites (in my own 'Top 3' along with Debussy and Ravel). The 2nd Piano Concerto is actually my favorite of the three. That slow movement of this 2nd PC is largely characteristic of his 'night music'. If you don't know about this kind of music that he wrote please do look it up --- I think there's a Wikipedia article written exclusively about Bartók's night music. I think one of the keys to understanding his orchestral music is listening to The Miraculous Mandarin. Once you get your teeth into this ballet, then everything else is much easier, IMHO. The Miraculous Mandarin is one of my favorites from him and I love the Modernist edge the music has to it. It's quite a contrast with his other more folkish ballet, The Wooden Prince, which is also quite fine and, IMHO, underrated. The best Bluebeard's Castle performances I know are Boulez on Columbia (Sony) and Kertész on Decca. Both of these performances are stellar and much better than any other performances I've heard, although I did like Haitink's recording on EMI (this may prove a tougher recording to track down for a good price since it's OOP). Yes, the SQs are incredible and an important body of work, but there's a lot of great solo piano music that you should check out, too, like Out of Doors or the Piano Sonata for example. There's  a good bit of choral music that's worth looking into, but recordings of this part of his oeuvre are more difficult to come by, but most of it (if all) has been recorded on the Hungaroton label. Anyway, keep listening to his music. I think one day all of it will finally click for you. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not a great fan of the Concerto for Orchestra, but the earlier Boulez account is scintillating and made me appreciate the work more than I have in the past.

Yes, I'm familiar with the night music thing, and I like his use of it in his string quartets especially. As for the Miraculous Mandarin, I have the suite, with Adam Fischer conducting the Hungarian State Opera Orchestra, on Brilliant (originally Nimbus). I liked it, but don't have much specific memory of it so I will have to revisit. Do you think the full ballet is worth exploring more so than the suite? I like his piano music, I have the Jenö Jandó Naxos disc of the first volume, and I have a couple books of Mikrokosmos that I play sometimes (it's the easy stuff). I think I have heard the Boulez/NYPO recording of the CfO once, I'll look out for a cheap copy, ditto for Bluebeard. Never heard the Kertesz, or anything of his really.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

PS. What's a good recording of Bluebeard? I actually do not have one. The one I heard was Doráti/LSO and that's the one I will probably get, but I will try and explore other avenues first. The Boulez/Sony appears to be pretty well liked.

There really are not that many recordings of this very effective work that _aren't_ quite good. Classics like Kertesz hold up well as do Doráti, Fricsay (but sung in German, which will be a no-go for most), and Ferencsik (the only one with an all Hungarian cast until Ivan Fischer came around. (Philips SACD)

I like Boulez - but the DG recording. Depends a bit how much one likes/comes to terms with Jessye Norman's Judith. Among modernish recordings, I probably favor Adam Fischer (Eva Marton/Sam Ramsey). If I wanted a first recording of these... and wasn't (as I am not) a native Hungarian speaker, I'd get Kertesz.




#morninglistening to #BélaBartók w/@londonsymphony under #IstvanKertesz on @DECCAclassics

[Irons]

I find Bartok a strange one. Other composers set out to gain their audience attention with an arresting opening but Bartok does the opposite, take for example Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta, is there a great work - which it is - with a more insipid opening? I get the impression that he writes his music for himself and could not give a toss if appreciated or not. Take it or leave it is his attitude. I admire that side of him so would never give up. The string quartets I have struggled with for years, the 4th I love and one of the greatest 20th century string quartets, the others I hammer away at, as my problem not his. It cannot be denied that Bartok is a giant of 20th century music.

[Mirror Image]

Yes, I'm familiar with the night music thing, and I like his use of it in his string quartets especially. As for the Miraculous Mandarin, I have the suite, with Adam Fischer conducting the Hungarian State Opera Orchestra, on Brilliant (originally Nimbus). I liked it, but don't have much specific memory of it so I will have to revisit. Do you think the full ballet is worth exploring more so than the suite? I like his piano music, I have the Jenö Jandó Naxos disc of the first volume, and I have a couple books of Mikrokosmos that I play sometimes (it's the easy stuff). I think I have heard the Boulez/NYPO recording of the CfO once, I'll look out for a cheap copy, ditto for Bluebeard. Never heard the Kertesz, or anything of his really.

I absolutely loathe Nimbus recordings --- the audio quality is the equivalent to getting a bath. The full ballet of The Miraculous Mandarin will always be preferable to the suite, IMHO, as the suite omits the wordless choir, which I think is a far out, cool effect, but also cuts about 20 something minutes from the complete ballet. I would check out the Kocsis recordings of the piano music --- it's superior to any other pianists I've heard in this music. Kertész in Bluebeard has been a standard recommendation for decades. If you can find a cheap copy of it, then don't hesitate to jump on it.

[Mirror Image]

I find Bartok a strange one. Other composers set out to gain their audience attention with an arresting opening but Bartok does the opposite, take for example Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta, is there a great work - which it is - with a more insipid opening? I get the impression that he writes his music for himself and could not give a toss if appreciated or not. Take it or leave it is his attitude. I admire that side of him so would never give up. The string quartets I have struggled with for years, the 4th I love and one of the greatest 20th century string quartets, the others I hammer away at, as my problem not his. It cannot be denied that Bartok is a giant of 20th century music.

I absolutely LOVE the opening to Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta! Not insipid to me all --- it's eerie, but so alluring to me and this is the kind of music that Bartók excels in. It's like entering a world that exists of nothing but shadows and a constantly blowing cold wind. Love it. I don't agree with your comment that Bartók wrote for himself and didn't care anything about his audience. How can you make such a claim? Do you know the inner-workings of Bartók's heart and mind? I think these kinds of opinions are silly and don't really do the composer any favors whatsoever. The image I have of him in my own mind is someone that wrote music because it was all he knew how to do and in doing this, found himself alienated from the establishment, but if you listen to his early works you hear the tradition of Richard Strauss for example and little bit later the influence of Debussy, but when he started studying folk music from around Europe and Eurasia is when his music began to take on a life of its' own and really where he found his own compositional voice.

Bartók recording folk songs from villagers:

[Mirror Image]

There really are not that many recordings of this very effective work that _aren't_ quite good. Classics like Kertesz hold up well as do Doráti, Fricsay (but sung in German, which will be a no-go for most), and Ferencsik (the only one with an all Hungarian cast until Ivan Fischer came around. (Philips SACD)

I like Boulez - but the DG recording. Depends a bit how much one likes/comes to terms with Jessye Norman's Judith. Among modernish recordings, I probably favor Adam Fischer (Eva Marton/Sam Ramsey). If I wanted a first recording of these... and wasn't (as I am not) a native Hungarian speaker, I'd get Kertesz.




#morninglistening to #BélaBartók w/@londonsymphony under #IstvanKertesz on @DECCAclassics

The Boulez Bluebeard on DG seems to get less favorable press. Many critics have said the conducting is dull and uninvolved. What's your take on this, Jens? I wouldn't mind revisiting this recording as I believe Norman was a great Judith. I loved her darker timbre.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

The Boulez Bluebeard on DG seems to get less favorable press. Many critics have said the conducting is dull and uninvolved.

I can't second "dull and uninvolved". I think it has thrust and cut and it executes with a sort of menacing determinability. You know it won't have a happy end pretty much by door 1, but that's not much of a spoiler alert. He bathes the stage in a grand movie-pan for door five; just as one ought to. Norman isn't, well... "integrated" into the fabric as much as Judith usually is. She always stands out. You're not quite sure who should be afraid. But it's a dramatic and beautiful reading.

[Ratliff]

The stated aim of 4D - according to DG's sleevenotes - was to reduce the background 'system' noise associated with all electronic recording processes, and particularly the noise introduced by long mic cable runs in big spaces.  This is all well and good but it's a completely pointless exercise since in any good system this noise is already much lower level than 'natural' auditorium ambience (air-con, 90 breathing musicians, distant muffled traffic and nesting birds, etc) which is all part and parcel of a recording of 'an orchestra'.  The only way to get a tangible or even measurable difference would be to use close multi-miking techniques, thus eliminating the ambience at the point of recording (and replacing it later) - so I guess that's what they did.
I like it - but you couldn't call it natural.

I think the practical result of "4D" was that they had the ability to use an much larger number of microphones for subsequent digital mixing. They often used it to implement a very close miking scheme, which allowed them to micromanage the balances, but resulted in an artificial sound. Many like the result, the clarity. But I find it insufferable. I like it best when a limited number of microphones is used and the sound is mixed by the hall, with a moderate amount of room presence. I'm thinking of pioneering work by Mercury Living Presence with 3 microphones suspended above the orchestra, RCA Living Stereo with a similar arrangement, the Decca Tree + outriggers. And of course some labels such as BIS and Telarc used similarly minimal microphone arrangements.

[Ratliff]

There really are not that many recordings of this very effective work that _aren't_ quite good. Classics like Kertesz hold up well as do Doráti, Fricsay (but sung in German, which will be a no-go for most), and Ferencsik (the only one with an all Hungarian cast until Ivan Fischer came around. (Philips SACD)

I like Boulez - but the DG recording. Depends a bit how much one likes/comes to terms with Jessye Norman's Judith. Among modernish recordings, I probably favor Adam Fischer (Eva Marton/Sam Ramsey). If I wanted a first recording of these... and wasn't (as I am not) a native Hungarian speaker, I'd get Kertesz.




#morninglistening to #BélaBartók w/@londonsymphony under #IstvanKertesz on @DECCAclassics

I wish I would have gotten that Adam Fischer when it was in print (now it seems to require a bit of a wild-goose chase). The Kertesz is attractive, but I think they really went overboard with the "theatre of the mind" stuff. I just want to hear the orchestra play without all the weird shifts in soundstage. Plus the Hungarian diction sounds really odd to my ear with two German speakers.  (Never mind the creepy aspect of a soon-to-be-divorced man and wife portraying this misogynistic story.)

[staxomega]

Wow, no Bartók talk in over a year. What gives? 

I have long struggled to enjoy the music of Bartók with a few exceptions: I fell in love with Bluebeard's Castle at first listen, both music and words—I found the story and the protagonist surprisingly relatable—and I think his 6 string quartets are a phenomenal body of work with much depth to them. I have had less success with his orchestral music. I like Music for Strings, Percussion & Celesta but I don't love it. Ditto for the Concerto for Orchestra, I often find myself getting bored with it (I probably just haven't heard the right recording in both cases).

Anyway, I recently got the piano concertos, Géza Anda, Ferenc Fricsay, RSO Berlin and have been enjoying it immensely. These are incredible works, up there with the best in the genre of their century. Anyone else been listening to these works lately? I just finished the second concerto, which I found to be the most challenging of the three on account of the huge, expansive, expressive slow movement, but I enjoyed it a lot. The first and third are much easier to grasp. Finally, I see these works as spiritual cousins to the five Prokofiev piano concertos, which I have been exploring simultaneously. In fact I may take a break from one or the other to avoid conflating them in my mind at such a crucial time in my exploration of this music.

Anyone else been listening to Bartók lately, the piano concertos or otherwise?

PS. What's a good recording of Bluebeard? I actually do not have one. The one I heard was Doráti/LSO and that's the one I will probably get, but I will try and explore other avenues first. The Boulez/Sony appears to be pretty well liked.

Whenever I hear one of the string quartets there is a good chance I end up listening to all of them, they are IMHO among the very finest written in the 20th century (my overall favorite by Vegh Quartet, their stereo recordings). I really like those recordings by Geza Anda and Fricsay as well.

[Jo498]

Dorati's singers in Bluebeard are both Hungarian, aren't they? (The orchestra isn't, though.) Not sure if I ever listened to it, but the orchestral works in that Mercury box are pretty good and the sound is still very remarkable after around 60 years, albeit with the typical "aggressive" Mercury quality. And I was somewhat dissapointed by Dorati's "Divertimento" when I did some comparisons of a few works a couple of months ago. The Divertimento is one of my great Bartok favorites. Vegh on Capriccio is very good and also a real dark Horse, Kegel with a Leipzig orchestra (maybe only in one of the Kegel boxes by Berlin/Eterna). And Harnoncourt's is also surprisingly good (whereas Holliger on Claves as filler for Veress and Dutilleux was another strangely "lame" one).
For a great Concerto f. Orchestra, Wooden Prince and Kossuth plus several odds and ends the Box by Ivan Fischer with that flowery design is extremely good. But overall Bartok seems very well covered on disc. Admittedly, I am not equally familiar with all of his works but of the major ones most recordings I have heard (usually around five or so) were mostly good to great.

[Mirror Image]

I can't second "dull and uninvolved". I think it has thrust and cut and it executes with a sort of menacing determinability. You know it won't have a happy end pretty much by door 1, but that's not much of a spoiler alert. He bathes the stage in a grand movie-pan for door five; just as one ought to. Norman isn't, well... "integrated" into the fabric as much as Judith usually is. She always stands out. You're not quite sure who should be afraid. But it's a dramatic and beautiful reading.

Thanks for the feedback, Jens. I must give this recording another listen. Honestly, I don't personally remember having any objections about it.