Béla Bartók (1881-1945)

[Daverz]

I wish I would have gotten that Adam Fischer when it was in print (now it seems to require a bit of a wild-goose chase). The Kertesz is attractive, but I think they really went overboard with the "theatre of the mind" stuff. I just want to hear the orchestra play without all the weird shifts in soundstage. Plus the Hungarian diction sounds really odd to my ear with two German speakers.  (Never mind the creepy aspect of a soon-to-be-divorced man and wife portraying this misogynistic story.)

I think you should stay away from any films with Richard Burton and Elizabeth Taylor.

[Ratliff]

I think you should stay away from any films with Richard Burton and Elizabeth Taylor.

Not a difficult task.

[Mirror Image]

Dorati's singers in Bluebeard are both Hungarian, aren't they? (The orchestra isn't, though.) Not sure if I ever listened to it, but the orchestral works in that Mercury box are pretty good and the sound is still very remarkable after around 60 years, albeit with the typical "aggressive" Mercury quality. And I was somewhat dissapointed by Dorati's "Divertimento" when I did some comparisons of a few works a couple of months ago. The Divertimento is one of my great Bartok favorites. Vegh on Capriccio is very good and also a real dark Horse, Kegel with a Leipzig orchestra (maybe only in one of the Kegel boxes by Berlin/Eterna). And Harnoncourt's is also surprisingly good (whereas Holliger on Claves as filler for Veress and Dutilleux was another strangely "lame" one).
For a great Concerto f. Orchestra, Wooden Prince and Kossuth plus several odds and ends the Box by Ivan Fischer with that flowery design is extremely good. But overall Bartok seems very well covered on disc. Admittedly, I am not equally familiar with all of his works but of the major ones most recordings I have heard (usually around five or so) were mostly good to great.

Yes, Dorati's vocalists are Olga Szőnyi and Mihály Székely (both are Hungarian). Dorati's Bartók was probably quite good for it's time, but has since been outclassed by Boulez and A. Fischer. Dorati simply sounds scrappy by comparison. The Divertimento is an outstanding work and a favorite of mine as well. I like Boulez's DG account and Solti's. Both of these are powerful performances in completely different ways. Solti really cuts through with some aggressive playing whereas Boulez is more cerebral and eerily performed. Both performances are remarkable. It's a shame Fischer never got around to recording this work as I think he would have done extremely well in it.

[Irons]

I absolutely LOVE the opening to Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta! Not insipid to me all --- it's eerie, but so alluring to me and this is the kind of music that Bartók excels in. It's like entering a world that exists of nothing but shadows and a constantly blowing cold wind. Love it. I don't agree with your comment that Bartók wrote for himself and didn't care anything about his audience. How can you make such a claim? Do you know the inner-workings of Bartók's heart and mind? I think these kinds of opinions are silly and don't really do the composer any favors whatsoever. The image I have of him in my own mind is someone that wrote music because it was all he knew how to do and in doing this, found himself alienated from the establishment, but if you listen to his early works you hear the tradition of Richard Strauss for example and little bit later the influence of Debussy, but when he started studying folk music from around Europe and Eurasia is when his music began to take on a life of its' own and really where he found his own compositional voice.

Bartók recording folk songs from villagers:

I don't know it, John. It is my impression - for what it is worth. Your "shadows and blowing wind" are my nothingness. I listened to the violin concerto last night. The opening consists of what imitates a couple of strums of a guitar and the solo violin meanders into what turns out a great concerto. There are other examples of what has informed this my opinion over the years and if I put my mind to it I will come up with some more*.

The exception - I'm sure there are many, many more - to my rule is the 4th SQ which I also listened last night, the opening of that work is pure Rock and Roll.

Edit: * https://youtu.be/W988C7IYG9c

[SurprisedByBeauty]

It's a shame Fischer never got around to recording this work as I think he would have done extremely well in it.

Fischer-who? Were you thinking of a different conductor? Someone who's dead now? Or a Fischer that's not coming to mind right now?

[Mirror Image]

Fischer-who? Were you thinking of a different conductor? Someone who's dead now? Or a Fischer that's not coming to mind right now?

Ivan Fischer.

[Mirror Image]

I don't know it, John. It is my impression - for what it is worth. Your "shadows and blowing wind" are my nothingness. I listened to the violin concerto last night. The opening consists of what imitates a couple of strums of a guitar and the solo violin meanders into what turns out a great concerto. There are other examples of what has informed this my opinion over the years and if I put my mind to it I will come up with some more*.

The exception - I'm sure there are many, many more - to my rule is the 4th SQ which I also listened last night, the opening of that work is pure Rock and Roll.

Edit: * https://youtu.be/W988C7IYG9c

Okay, well all I can really gather from our exchange has been I love Bartók and you're not much of a fan.

[staxomega]

Ivan Fischer.

He could still record it, last year Budapest Festival Orchestra and him were playing some Bartok programs, though music he recorded in the past. I would love to hear it given the high level musicianship of Budapest Festival Orchestra and the strength of his past Bartok recordings.

[Mirror Image]

He could still record it, last year Budapest Festival Orchestra and him were playing some Bartok programs, though music he recorded in the past. I would love to hear it given the high level musicianship of Budapest Festival Orchestra and the strength of his past Bartok recordings.

I would, too, but I suspect it won't happen. Was the Divertimento on any of those programs? If it wasn't then my suspicion would be pretty accurate.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

Ivan Fischer.

But he _has_ recorded it!

[Mirror Image]

But he _has_ recorded it!

I'm not talking about Bluebeard's Castle, I'm talking about Divertimento. I know Fischer has recorded Bluebeard. I own it.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

I'm not talking about Bluebeard's Castle, I'm talking about Divertimento. I know Fischer has recorded Bluebeard. I own it.

Oh, sorry. My bad! Too hasty in my supposed superior knowledge. 

[Mirror Image]

Oh, sorry. My bad! Too hasty in my supposed superior knowledge. 

No worries!

[Mirror Image]

Cross-posted from the 'Listening' thread:

Bartók
Bluebeard's Castle
Jessye Norman (soprano), László Polgár (bass)
Chicago Symphony Orchestra
Pierre Boulez

Having just finished listening to this performance, allow me to offer some criticism I have for it. I think one of the biggest problems with this performance is the mis-match of vocalists. I do not find Jessye Norman to be a compelling Judith and, in fact, I felt no empathy for the character at all and the vocal performance while technically superb failed to touch me in any way. Baritone László Polgár just doesn't have much of a commanding voice --- he sounds rather underwhelming compared to other performances I've heard like Siegmund Nimsgern or John Tomlinson. I think Boulez has a great command of the orchestra, but he can't quite match his earlier self on Columbia. I think the earlier Boulez had an Expressionistic quality to it that outclassed this one. This isn't to say I didn't think his performance was terrible as it certainly wasn't, but I think the sheer energy of the earlier performance was a better match than the more laser precision focus of this Chicago performance. Anyway, the earlier Boulez and Kertész are my go-to performances of this operatic masterpiece.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

...I do not find Jessye Norman to be a compelling Judith and, in fact, I felt no empathy for the character at all and the vocal performance while technically superb failed to touch me in any way. Baritone László Polgár just doesn't have much of a commanding voice --- he sounds rather underwhelming compared to other ...

Norman isn't, well... "integrated" into the fabric as much as Judith usually is. She always stands out. You're not quite sure who should be afraid: [She or Bluebeard]

We hear the same thing. (I just mind it less.)

[staxomega]

I would, too, but I suspect it won't happen. Was the Divertimento on any of those programs? If it wasn't then my suspicion would be pretty accurate.

Sorry John, this slipped by me. I'm certain it wasn't, that would have stood out if it was (though I was more keen on traveling to see Mahler), the piece I think I can recall was Concerto for Orchestra.

I don't know what the drama was surrounding him and Budapest, whatever it is seemed to have fortunately settled down, hopefully many more recordings with him are to come!

[Mirror Image]

Sorry John, this slipped by me. I'm certain it wasn't, that would have stood out if it was (though I was more keen on traveling to see Mahler), the piece I think I can recall was Concerto for Orchestra.

I don't know what the drama was surrounding him and Budapest, whatever it is seemed to have fortunately settled down, hopefully many more recordings with him are to come!

I'll be honest, I haven't exactly followed Fischer's career. I don't really follow musicians too much. There have been some instances in the past where I'd be rather excited for a new release of a musician I love, but not much these days. It seems over the past 2-3 years or so, I'm simply trying to fill in gaps in my collection. Also, many composers I once liked, don't really do much for me nowadays. I say a lot of this stems from my tastes changing and finally being able to stop listening to what people tell me is good and let my own ears do the listening. Some listeners here on GMG like to buy every recording of an 'unknown great' that gets released or continuously find new discoveries. Personally, I'm past that point. I have enough music in my collection to last me 20 lifetimes and it's always an adventure to delve into the collection I already possess.

[staxomega]

I'll be honest, I haven't exactly followed Fischer's career. I don't really follow musicians too much. There have been some instances in the past where I'd be rather excited for a new release of a musician I love, but not much these days. It seems over the past 2-3 years or so, I'm simply trying to fill in gaps in my collection. Also, many composers I once liked, don't really do much for me nowadays. I say a lot of this stems from my tastes changing and finally being able to stop listening to what people tell me is good and let my own ears do the listening. Some listeners here on GMG like to buy every recording of an 'unknown great' that gets released or continuously find new discoveries. Personally, I'm past that point. I have enough music in my collection to last me 20 lifetimes and it's always an adventure to delve into the collection I already possess.

I do a good amount of exploring with piano because I know it very well. Otherwise my comment on Fischer is really only because I find he is one of the few most consistent conductors recording today and with one of the world's best orchestras in reference level sound which is why I hoped he continued recording, hopefully in repertoire I want to explore instead of ones I'm burned out on. I just had a look at Channel Classics website, he has more discs I haven't heard than I have.

[Mirror Image]

I do a good amount of exploring with piano because I know it very well. Otherwise my comment on Fischer is really only because I find he is one of the few most consistent conductors recording today and with one of the world's best orchestras in reference level sound which is why I hoped he continued recording, hopefully in repertoire I want to explore instead of ones I'm burned out on. I just had a look at Channel Classics website, he has more discs I haven't heard than I have.

Fischer is a good conductor there's no doubt about that. I don't know his discography well, but I have liked his Bartók and he did a recording of Kodály that was also very good. But I don't pretend to know his career very well and this really goes for a lot of musicians who have recorded favorite composers of mine. I have always been composer-centric in my collecting. There's many listeners here who buy mega set after mega set of this or that musician and while those are neat, they wouldn't get much mileage in my own collection.

[staxomega]

Fischer is a good conductor there's no doubt about that. I don't know his discography well, but I have liked his Bartók and he did a recording of Kodály that was also very good. But I don't pretend to know his career very well and this really goes for a lot of musicians who have recorded favorite composers of mine. I have always been composer-centric in my collecting. There's many listeners here who buy mega set after mega set of this or that musician and while those are neat, they wouldn't get much mileage in my own collection.

With the mega sets I get the impression it's from many decades of listening to an artist and getting to know them very well that they're almost like a familiar friend interpretation wise, ie a certain style that you know you like. And that this box essentially lets you fill in gaps for cheap, albums that were vinyl only, you couldn't find on vinyl when they came out, etc. On the Hoffman forum I definitely get the vibe that many of them are buying them for the sake of accumulation and some hardly get played. I'll use Vladimir Horowitz as an example, I started listening to him early on and most people flocking to his concerts probably loved him for his showmanship and virtuosity, that never really interested me but his phrasing, legato, the way he plays up or down certain sections, turn of a phrase all make him a supremely interesting artist in my eyes that even if it's not a home run with every composer he usually has something interesting to say since he only played music he liked.

I do some New Math (joke for anyone that has kids in the US ) in my head on whether they are worth it or not for performances that would be new to me that might interest me after streaming them. Even missing some on streaming I've discovered some absolute gems in these boxes that I wouldn't have known otherwise, a recent one would be Robert Casadesus/Anna Moffo with some of Debussy's Songs. Unfortunately labels take individual CDs out of print pretty quickly that occasionally getting one of these boxes is quite a bit cheaper.

But yes there is nothing wrong with going about it from a composer point of view, I did the very same thing when I was new to classical. It was harder before the internet, it was basically relying on what a teacher said, what labels I liked, who I found consistent, accumulating a lot of discs I'd never play again, etc. And even doing this with composers I love some music still slips through the cracks so sets like the DG/Warner Debussy, Decca Bartok or my more recent Boulez boxes are pretty valuable to me. There are still a handful of composers I want to explore but by this point I have a firm grasp of what I like and don't like. For 20th century I'm much more interested in avant-garde than symphony music that resembles film scores so that also struck off a lot composers from my list, though I may have been too hasty in some of those decisions.

Interesting discourse, maybe a mod will want to split it off from this thread.

To keep this on Bartok I've put Annie Fischer's recordings of the 15 Hungarian Peasant Songs back in my heavy rotation these last few weeks, brilliant performances Among my favorite works from Bartok's solo keyboard music.