Béla Bartók (1881-1945)

[RJR]

It just doesn't seem that they ever moved in the same circles, not at the same time.

Right. Prokofiev was wowing them in Paris and Bartok and Kodaly were roaming the countryside in Transylvania, recording folk songs.

[RJR]

I have heard Bluebeard's Castle, it's an interesting (if atypical) work of Bartok's. I was talking more about the works practically everybody into classical music knows, such as the Concerto for Orchestra, the Music for Strings, Percussion & Celesta (these I was fortunate enough to see recently, so don't get me wrong, I like them very much), the piano concertos, & Divertimento for Strings. These are not difficult works to understand by any stretch of the imagination (after maybe a handful of considered listenings). I wouldn't necessarily include the 2nd violin concerto, not because it is not as popular, but because it is more complex (Yehudi Menuhin wrote that Bartok told him how he was using the 12 note method in a tonal way, especially in the intricate theme and variations which constitutes the slow middle movement). I wasn't saying complexity is better than simplicity. I was basically suggesting that his more complex works tend to repay repeated listening more. If you are interested in Colin Wilson's opinions (& yes, take them with a fairly large grain of salt), his book Chords & Discords: purely personal opinions on music is on google books, including the 4th chapter, somewhat ominiously titled "The tragedy of Bartok" (it's not too long, but I don't like how he tries to paint a kind of psycho-biographical picture of the composer based on someone else's memoirs, since Wilson never met Bartok). Hope the link below works. The book also includes a chapter on Delius, which you might be more interested in. I'd be interested to read what you think of Wilson's assessment of Bartok, in any case...

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=tUsiMS_iPOIC&printsec=frontcover&dq=colin+wilson+chords+and+discords&hl=en&ei=2VQ2TcunG4rCvQPsvonAAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Is that the book that Colin Wilson wrote after he made a lot of money and bought hundreds of records? The title of my Colin Wilson book was Colin Wilson on Music. He states somewhere in this book that Wagner was a minor composer and Richard Strauss was a major composer. I wish I had kept that book, I'd like to reread it forty years later. Compare notes.

[RJR]

I have heard Bluebeard's Castle, it's an interesting (if atypical) work of Bartok's. I was talking more about the works practically everybody into classical music knows, such as the Concerto for Orchestra, the Music for Strings, Percussion & Celesta (these I was fortunate enough to see recently, so don't get me wrong, I like them very much), the piano concertos, & Divertimento for Strings. These are not difficult works to understand by any stretch of the imagination (after maybe a handful of considered listenings). I wouldn't necessarily include the 2nd violin concerto, not because it is not as popular, but because it is more complex (Yehudi Menuhin wrote that Bartok told him how he was using the 12 note method in a tonal way, especially in the intricate theme and variations which constitutes the slow middle movement). I wasn't saying complexity is better than simplicity. I was basically suggesting that his more complex works tend to repay repeated listening more. If you are interested in Colin Wilson's opinions (& yes, take them with a fairly large grain of salt), his book Chords & Discords: purely personal opinions on music is on google books, including the 4th chapter, somewhat ominiously titled "The tragedy of Bartok" (it's not too long, but I don't like how he tries to paint a kind of psycho-biographical picture of the composer based on someone else's memoirs, since Wilson never met Bartok). Hope the link below works. The book also includes a chapter on Delius, which you might be more interested in. I'd be interested to read what you think of Wilson's assessment of Bartok, in any case...

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=tUsiMS_iPOIC&printsec=frontcover&dq=colin+wilson+chords+and+discords&hl=en&ei=2VQ2TcunG4rCvQPsvonAAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

I also remember Colin Wilson criticizing some of Bartok's personal eccentricities. Something about a rug being sent to him from his homeland. It didn't smell right. Mr. Wilson found that very strange. Maybe it was. What did that have to do with Bartok's music? He became the darling of the literary crowd practically overnight so his publisher decided to capitalize on his sudden popularity and asked him to write this book. After a year's listening to hundreds of records and reading dozens of book-or should I say cramming-he suddenly thinks he's a music critic, and a knowledgable one at that. Not just a critic of classical music, but jazz as well. Thanks for the memories.

[RJR]

I have heard Concerto for Orchestra so many times (I'm not even sure how many times I've heard it) and I still don't understand it. It is one of those Bartok works that I'm still trying to wrap my head around. There is something about this work that just doesn't click with me. Music for Strings, Percussion, and Celesta is a pretty accessible work, but I wouldn't say Divertimento is that accessible as it contains a lot of dissonance. The Wooden Prince is accessible. The Miraculous Mandarin is a brutally dissonant work, which I love through and through. His concerti are also not so easy to grasp for an average listener. Two Portraits has been a recent discovery of mine that I overlooked. I'm not sure if you've heard this one or not, but it's a work for violin and orchestra and the first movement alone is a miniature masterpiece I think. I do enjoy the string quartets. These aren't as difficult to grasp as many would have you to believe, but they are certainly jagged, angular, almost completely atonal, but the high level of dissonance shouldn't be new to anyone, especially coming from a heavy diet of 20th Century music. There's a lot of complexity in Bartok's music, but what makes him a major composer, in my view, is the way he was able to mask the more difficult passages with cutthroat rhythms and folkloric lyricism. But I think we would both agree that if somebody wants to get into Bartok then they're going to have to hear his string quartets at some point, because they are some of the best written in the 20th Century, but maybe I'm just being a little biased here.

You might understand the Concerto for Orchestra even less when I tell you that he wrote the last movement first. There's a very good book that just came out several years ago about this work. Worth a read.

[Mirror Image]

You might understand the Concerto for Orchestra even less when I tell you that he wrote the last movement first. There's a very good book that just came out several years ago about this work. Worth a read.

Yes, I've read a lot about this work, but it still confuses me. I'm coming around to it though. Step-by-step, day-by-day I'm making progress. This is the only major work by Bartok that I have had some kind of problem with emotionally and intellectually.

[snyprrr]

I'd like to get into BB's Piano Music. The library has the Fischer?? five cd set,... I've listened before, and I just didn't get my jets excited. What are his Top5 piano pieces that I could 'try' again?

I'll start by checking out the Sonata and Out of Doors on YouTube.

[rappy]

Is that the book that Colin Wilson wrote after he made a lot of money and bought hundreds of records? The title of my Colin Wilson book was Colin Wilson on Music. He states somewhere in this book that Wagner was a minor composer and Richard Strauss was a major composer. I wish I had kept that book, I'd like to reread it forty years later. Compare notes.

Wow, just read the chapter about Schönberg, Stravinsky and Hindemith. Really much nonsense what he writes, isn't it?! Very superficial, which displays itself in e.g. sentences where Kant is named in the same breath as Hegel for lack of clarity.

"The proof that the public responds to what is being said can be found in Alban Berg, whose only two 'popular' works are Woxzeck and the Violin Concerto, both clearly driven by a powerful emotion. The Chamber Concerto or the Altenberg Songs say nothing of comparable importance, and are seldom heard."

Huh?!

"Schoenberg has been accused of many things including deliberate faking — musical confidence trickery. But the worst that can fairly be alleged against him is that the complexity of his musical language is not true complexity — the complexity that is the attempt to communicate a complex emotion."

[snyprrr]

I'd like to get into BB's Piano Music. The library has the Fischer?? five cd set,... I've listened before, and I just didn't get my jets excited. What are his Top5 piano pieces that I could 'try' again?

I'll start by checking out the Sonata and Out of Doors on YouTube.

Didn't like the Sonata.

Really liked the Sonatina.

Liked the 3 Etudes Op.18.

Allegro Barbaro,... eh.

I'm sure I have far to go.

[lescamil]

Didn't like the Sonata.

Really liked the Sonatina.

Liked the 3 Etudes Op.18.

Allegro Barbaro,... eh.

I'm sure I have far to go.

Check out his Out of Doors suite. It is one of his best piano works by far, if you ask me. I am also not a fan of the Piano Sonata, and I also love the Three Etudes (they almost sound like they could have been written by Ligeti, to my ears at least).

[PaulSC]

The Three Folksongs from the District of Csik are little gems.

http://www.youtube.com/v/DYGXmBdUmFw

[karlhenning]

Didn't like the Sonata.

Well, if you didn't, you didn't.  But really, it surprises me that anyone could not like that piece.

[lescamil]

Well, if you didn't, you didn't.  But really, it surprises me that anyone could not like that piece.

There is a sort of coldness that pervades that work, in my opinion, that you really don't see in some of his other piano works. I think that is what gets to me the most. I don't hate it, but I would never call it one of my favorites, either.

[Klaze]

I'd like to get into BB's Piano Music. The library has the Fischer?? five cd set,... I've listened before, and I just didn't get my jets excited. What are his Top5 piano pieces that I could 'try' again?

I'll start by checking out the Sonata and Out of Doors on YouTube.

I think it might be Sandor in that set?

Aside from the works mentioned, I'd definitely try the Suite Op.14. Three exhilarating pieces, and ending with a sort of Nachtmusik. I think the 8 Improvisations on Hungarian peasant songs are also important, or at least well-regarded, but maybe less immediately likeable...?

[Luke]

There are two comparatively neglected early Elegies by Bartok (op 8b I think, IIRC) which are just astonishing, notationally speaking - I've never seen anything else like them in his music. Evidence that he was really straining at the boundaries of the possible in these pieces, I think.

Yep, op 8b, here's the score. http://216.129.110.22/files/imglnks/usimg/7/73/IMSLP12642-Bartok_op08b_2_Elegies.pdf  Check out the last few pages especially. Wish I could post attachments.....

[Scarpia]

There are two comparatively neglected early Elegies by Bartok (op 8b I think, IIRC) which are just astonishing, notationally speaking - I've never seen anything else like them in his music. Evidence that he was really straining at the boundaries of the possible in these pieces, I think.

Yep, op 8b, here's the score. http://216.129.110.22/files/imglnks/usimg/7/73/IMSLP12642-Bartok_op08b_2_Elegies.pdf  Check out the last few pages especially. Wish I could post attachments.....

Wow, I have recordings of those.  Must listen.

[Mirror Image]

[asin]B0006OS5YS[/asin]
A different soloist and orchestra for each concerto but with the same conductor. Sounds like a gimmick but, surprisingly, it works incredibly well. Krystian Zimerman's is the most scintillating performance but the others are not far behind.

I'm not too fond of this recording. The three different pianist idea just doesn't work for me. None of these performances can even touch Anda, Ashkenazy, Pollini, or even the new account on Chandos with Bavouzet in my estimate. Zimerman, Andsnes, and Grimaud are all fine pianists, but to my ears, they're not dedicated enough to the music making at hand. Boulez doesn't sound particularly interested in the music making either. I haven't heard this recording in quite some time (I own all of Boulez's Bartok recordings), but I don't remember it making much of an impression.

[asin]B0000013Y5[/asin]
Jandó who has recorded a wide range of repertoire for Naxos, is clearly very much at home with Bartók. These are vigorous, idiomatic accounts and at budget price, a no brainer.

Not really a no brainer and a mediocre performance overall. Stick to the major labels for Bartok.

[Sid]

Bartok's piano concertos were amongst the first from the c20th that I got to know. They are still favourites with me, although I don't listen to them that much now. My mother introduced me to them yonks ago. Her favourite is the 2nd, mine used to be the 1st but now I'm more drawn to the gentle lyricism of the 3rd. Anyhow, all three are worth listening to, and (luckily!) fit onto one disc.

I have heard the Boulez & Jando recordings above, both are pretty good. I own the Jando recording & I wouldn't say it's mediocre, but quite well done, imo. The most engaging recording I have heard of these works was done by the late Bulgarian pianist Anton Dikov. I still own an old tape of a reissue of some Balkanton recordings on the Australian Festival label, now sadly OOP. This music was not really his specialty - apparently Beethoven was - but Dikov played with such fire, passion and ferocity, it's just unbelievable. The recording was also made in a way to emphasise the percussion, which are much clearer than in any other recording I have heard. This makes sense, because in a way these concertos not only emphasize the percussiveness of the piano but also of the other percussion instruments on stage. Unfortunately, I don't think many people here will get a chance to listen to this excellent recording...

[Mirror Image]

Bartok's piano concertos were amongst the first from the c20th that I got to know. They are still favourites with me, although I don't listen to them that much now. My mother introduced me to them yonks ago. Her favourite is the 2nd, mine used to be the 1st but now I'm more drawn to the gentle lyricism of the 3rd. Anyhow, all three are worth listening to, and (luckily!) fit onto one disc.

I have heard the Boulez & Jando recordings above, both are pretty good. I own the Jando recording & I wouldn't say it's mediocre, but quite well done, imo. The most engaging recording I have heard of these works was done by the late Bulgarian pianist Anton Dikov. I still own an old tape of a reissue of some Balkanton recordings on the Australian Festival label, now sadly OOP. This music was not really his specialty - apparently Beethoven was - but Dikov played with such fire, passion and ferocity, it's just unbelievable. The recording was also made in a way to emphasise the percussion, which are much clearer than in any other recording I have heard. This makes sense, because in a way these concertos not only emphasize the percussiveness of the piano but also of the other percussion instruments on stage. Unfortunately, I don't think many people here will get a chance to listen to this excellent recording...

I think I'm more or less responding to the ongoing consensus amongst forums I've been on that Naxos is somehow the way to go just because their recordings are budget priced. I have heard many poor Naxos recordings where not only the performances were laughable, but also the audio quality. With so many "budget" releases from various major labels, with first-rate performances and audio quality, that are being made available to the public these days, Naxos seems like it should be a second thought. I remember getting into an argument about this with a forum member (on another site) about the quality of Naxos' recordings and I own a ton of their CDs just because they offer so much unheard repertoire, but it doesn't mean that the performances can't be bettered. A serious classical listener has to realize that Naxos aren't the only label. Cheap doesn't always translate to quality, but don't let my dismay about many of their recordings confuse you, they have many fine recordings, but my point is they're not the only game in town.

[Scarpia]

I have heard the Boulez & Jando recordings above, both are pretty good. I own the Jando recording & I wouldn't say it's mediocre, but quite well done, imo. The most engaging recording I have heard of these works was done by the late Bulgarian pianist Anton Dikov. I still own an old tape of a reissue of some Balkanton recordings on the Australian Festival label, now sadly OOP. This music was not really his specialty - apparently Beethoven was - but Dikov played with such fire, passion and ferocity, it's just unbelievable. The recording was also made in a way to emphasise the percussion, which are much clearer than in any other recording I have heard. This makes sense, because in a way these concertos not only emphasize the percussiveness of the piano but also of the other percussion instruments on stage. Unfortunately, I don't think many people here will get a chance to listen to this excellent recording...

I have a few Jando recordings, all of which are very good, but not the Bartok.

My favorite recording is one not often mentioned, Schiff.

[asin]B000000S91[/asin]

They get the interaction between the piano and orchestra just right, in my opinion.  I also like Pollini's old recordings with Abbado, but they did not do the 3rd, for some reason.

[Mirror Image]

I have a few Jando recordings, all of which are very good, but not the Bartok.

My favorite recording is one not often mentioned, Schiff.

[asin]B000000S91[/asin]

They get the interaction between the piano and orchestra just right, in my opinion.  I also like Pollini's old recordings with Abbado, but they did not do the 3rd, for some reason.

Yes, I like the Schiff too, Scarpia. Very fine performance, but, then again, it helps when the conductor is a Bartokian like Fischer. The Pollini, which I mentioned above is fantastic. It is odd that Pollini/Abbado didn't record the third piano concerto. I own the reissued/remastered recording, which features an excellent bonus performance of Two Portraits.