Béla Bartók (1881-1945)

[Mirror Image]

My favourite Bartok:
1. Music for strings, percussion, and celesta
2. Sonata for two pianos and percusssion
3. String Quartet No. 5
4. Concerto for Orchestra
5. Divertimento for String Orchestra
(I believe these were composed in the last ten years of his life;
my favorite Bartok "period".) I was first exposed to Bartok's music
at a concert at Florida State University in the 1950s. Ernst von
Dohnanyi was resident composer at that time.

Impressive list. I can't say I'm too keen on Concerto for Orchestra or Sonata for two pianos and percussion though, but I realize this is your list.

My list would look something like this (in no particular order):

1. The Wooden Prince
2. The Miraculous Mandarin
3. Violin Concerto No. 2
4. Bluebeard's Castle
5. Piano Concerto No. 2

Other favorites: Contrasts, Dance Suite, Piano Concerto No. 3, Hungarian Sketches, Profana Cantata, Music for Strings, Percussion, and Celesta, and Divertimento.

[mahler10th]

Impressive list. I can't say I'm too keen on Concerto for Orchestra or Sonata for two pianos and percussion though, but I realize this is your list.

My list would look something like this (in no particular order):

1. The Wooden Prince
2. The Miraculous Mandarin
3. Violin Concerto No. 2
4. Bluebeard's Castle
5. Piano Concerto No. 2

Other favorites: Contrasts, Dance Suite, Piano Concerto No. 3, Hungarian Sketches, Profana Cantata, Music for Strings, Percussion, and Celesta, and Divertimento.

I listened to The Wooden Prince today for the first time in many, many moons.  What an outstanding work it is, no wonder it's at the top of your list John.  (Version listened to was Adam Fischer, HSSO)

[Mirror Image]

I listened to The Wooden Prince today for the first time in many, many moons.  What an outstanding work it is, no wonder it's at the top of your list John.  (Version listened to was Adam Fischer, HSSO)

Yeah, I'm glad you like this work a lot too, John. It seems that the ballet doesn't get as much press as The Miraculous Mandarin, but I think it's just as fine. But aesthetically, The Wooden Prince is quite different than Mandarin. The Wooden Prince has more of a folk influence whereas Madarnin is in a more Modern, dissonant musical language. Both ballets couldn't be more different but I love them both. I really, really love Boulez's second recording of The Wooden Prince on DG with the CSO. This is an astounding recording. It's coupled with the Cantata Profana. Ivan Fischer also recorded a fine performance on Philips. Boulez's first recording of this work was also good (w/ the NY Philharmonic), but I think his CSO edges that one out by just a hair.

[DavidW]

This will be my 9th recording of Bluebeard's Castle. Can't wait to hear this one!

After your long survey do you have any new favorites?

[Karl Henning]

Impressive list. I can't say I'm too keen on Concerto for Orchestra or Sonata for two pianos and percussion though [....]

Yeah, I'm glad you like this work a lot too, John. It seems that the ballet doesn't get as much press as The Miraculous Mandarin, but I think it's just as fine. But aesthetically, The Wooden Prince is quite different than Mandarin. The Wooden Prince has more of a folk influence whereas Madarnin is in a more Modern, dissonant musical language. Both ballets couldn't be more different but I love them both.

To echo a theme in A kékszakállú herceg vára . . . you have given your love to the morning, but as for myself, I probably like all times of day roughly equal : )

[Mirror Image]

After your long survey do you have any new favorites?

I really enjoyed the Haitink on EMI. Boulez's first on Sony is still a good one. But I've still yet to find a recording that beats Kertesz on Decca.

[Scion7]

These two vinyl recordings have given me 30+ years of pleasure:

[Klaze]

These two vinyl recordings have given me 30+ years of pleasure:







(open the links  [?] in another window to get the images, they won't resolve here)

You should put the address of the picture itself between the img tags (which shows for example when you right-click on the picture and view Properties), in this case:

http://s14.postimage.org/lds1sl7hr/Bartok_Front_Label_Juliard_Box_Set_1963.jpg

and

http://s15.postimage.org/gb57hbayh/Vln_Con1_Stern_Pn_Con1_Serkin.jpg




And I can very well understand the pleasure they have given you. I have that Concerto LP as well, and I've got the Juilliard Quartet playing Bartok on CD. I think they're both very nice recordings.

[Roberto]

I assume the Bartok-jazz claim comes largely from Contrasts, due to it being written for Benny Goodman to play. Of course, the fact that its exemplars (if any) are Hungarian folk music, and that it was written at the request of Joseph Szigeti (the distinctly Hungarian violinist in the first performances), aren't so interesting to people wanting to find a link.

Bartók said: "We have beautiful folk music, so we don't need jazz."

[Roberto]

Anyone heard about Hungaroton's Bartók New Series? http://www.bartoknewseries.com/
They planned to record all works from Bartók mostly with Zoltán Kocsis but the set is still incomplete after 10 years. 
I have all recordings from this series (partly dedicated  ) and I think it is absolutely first class. (The piano recordings are from Kocsis' earlier Decca cycle.)

[Mandryka]

Re Bartok, can anyone explain what parlando-rubato means? You sometimes see it used when people discuss his music.

[North Star]

Re Bartok, can anyone explain what parlando-rubato means? You sometimes see it used when people discuss his music.

This excerpt cuts just before it was going to be useful..
...European folk music, the Hungarian composer and ethnomusicologist Béla Bartók identified two primary singing styles in European folk music, which he named parlando-rubato and tempo giusto. Parlando-rubato, stressing the words, departs frequently from strict...

[Mandryka]

This excerpt cuts just before it was going to be useful..
...European folk music, the Hungarian composer and ethnomusicologist Béla Bartók identified two primary singing styles in European folk music, which he named parlando-rubato and tempo giusto. Parlando-rubato, stressing the words, departs frequently from strict...

Yes I'd found that too. This concept, parlando rubato, is, I think, one that's pretty widely applied in studies of folk music. But it's hard to find anything on the web which explains just what it is.

I'm very very impressed by the rubato in Bartok's own recordings, at the moment I'm listening to string quartet recordings with the aim of seeing whether they use a similar type of rubato. I think this is  right at the heart of making this music work.

[Parsifal]

Yes I'd found that too. This concept, parlando rubato, is, I think, one that's pretty widely applied in studies of folk music. But it's hard to find anything on the web which explains just what it is.

I means the tempo is varied to suit the patterns of speech.

[Roberto]

I'm very very impressed by the rubato in Bartok's own recordings, at the moment I'm listening to string quartet recordings with the aim of seeing whether they use a similar type of rubato. I think this is  right at the heart of making this music work.

You are absolutely right! I am not a musicologist and it is hard to describe it in English. I think the "rubato" is clear: free modifications of the rhytm. You will find great examples of it in Willem Mengelberg's recordings:
Tchaikovsky 4th movement 2 with Karajan and no rubato: (try just a few seconds) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMViOrqBzPk&feature=player_detailpage#t=1148s
And the same with Mengelberg: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=An_FS8Gl9ug#t=1025s

What parlando is? When an authentic performer sings a Hungarian (or Central-European) folk song, he also modifies the tempo (and the dynamics) in order to the song's theme and based on the rules of the language. It is impossible to write down every little modification on the score: the performer has to feel the right singing style. When a musical piece based on folk themes the performer must apply this style on his instrument also. I think this is the parlando-rubato style. If you know Zoltán Kodály's Háry János suite: the main theme of the 3rd movement based on a hungarian folk song. I know that song well and when I hear a performance I can sing that song in my mind. Mengelberg made a recording from this work also which is great but I feel: the performer doesn't know and doesn't understand the song because his playing doesn't fit my "inner" singing. Doesn't fit the nature of the song and the language. When I listening to this work in a performance of a Hungarian orchestra: everything will be right. I feel that the performer also can sing that song.

[Mandryka]

I means the tempo is varied to suit the patterns of speech.

You are absolutely right! I am not a musicologist and it is hard to describe it in English. I think the "rubato" is clear: free modifications of the rhytm. You will find great examples of it in Willem Mengelberg's recordings:
Tchaikovsky 4th movement 2 with Karajan and no rubato: (try just a few seconds) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMViOrqBzPk&feature=player_detailpage#t=1148s
And the same with Mengelberg: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=An_FS8Gl9ug#t=1025s

What parlando is? When an authentic performer sings a Hungarian (or Central-European) folk song, he also modifies the tempo (and the dynamics) in order to the song's theme and based on the rules of the language. It is impossible to write down every little modification on the score: the performer has to feel the right singing style. When a musical piece based on folk themes the performer must apply this style on his instrument also. I think this is the parlando-rubato style. If you know Zoltán Kodály's Háry János suite: the main theme of the 3rd movement based on a hungarian folk song. I know that song well and when I hear a performance I can sing that song in my mind. Mengelberg made a recording from this work also which is great but I feel: the performer doesn't know and doesn't understand the song because his playing doesn't fit my "inner" singing. Doesn't fit the nature of the song and the language. When I listening to this work in a performance of a Hungarian orchestra: everything will be right. I feel that the performer also can sing that song.

Is this an example of it, his recording of the Preludio al'ungarese from the  little piano pieces, which is, at the moment, blowing my mind?

http://open.spotify.com/track/4epd6fBlHFVFX2KWisSBgE

This is the CD

[Roberto]

Is this an example of it, his recording of the Preludio al'ungarese from the  little piano pieces, which is, at the moment, blowing my mind?

Unfortunately I can't open the link. (I have the Bartók plays Bartók complete Hungaroton set but I am not at home at the moment.) I found it on youtube and yes, maybe it is. But I can show an original example. It is a parlando folk song performed by a shepherd (so it is authentic):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=qdLhg1yLLPM#at=18
And it is the Rhapsody from "For Children" by Bartók (I found an essay and it said it is parlando-rubato):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_I_NbN9F68
I think the style of the two piece and the performances are very similar.

[Ten thumbs]

As I have commented elsewhere, this composer's name is Bartók Béla. Even Wikipedia has this wrong (shame on it!). It is of course correctly given on a commemorative Hungarian postage stamp. The interesting thing is that people are falling over backwards to give Chinese names with the surname first but avoid the fact that the same applies in Hungary.

[Opus106]

As I have commented elsewhere, this composer's name is Bartók Béla. Even Wikipedia has this wrong (shame on it!).

The English Wikipedia, you mean? At least it says at the outset what his actual name is and that the rest of the article uses the English version. Have a look at the Hungarian Wikipedia instead.

The interesting thing is that people are falling over backwards to give Chinese names with the surname first but avoid the fact that the same applies in Hungary.

Wait till Hungary becomes a manufacturing hub and a HUGE market for foreign investment.

[Roberto]

The interesting thing is that people are falling over backwards to give Chinese names with the surname first but avoid the fact that the same applies in Hungary.

In Hungary the surname is the first but I think it is correct to use the western order in English texts. (At least foreign people know which is which.)