Béla Bartók (1881-1945)

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Brahmsian

Quote from: karlhenning on November 19, 2013, 04:56:05 PM
Looks very nice, Ray!

Indeed, a fine Canadian conductor, and an excellent Canadian chamber orchestra ensemble.

amw

#261
Quote from: ChamberNut on November 19, 2013, 04:51:23 PM
Yes, I have heard very glowing reviews about the Julliard Bartok SQ cycle.  Some say it surpasses the Takacs and Emersons.

Well, there are three Juilliard cycles, apparently, though I've not heard the other two (which are with different lineups i believe—my enjoyment of the Juilliard Quartet starts to diminish around 1975-80 or so, so I've never investigated). Possibly four. I don't know which one the reviews say is the best, but if you ask me, the '63 cycle is the Bartók string quartet cycle to have, though I feel kind of bad saying that because I also love the Takacs cycle and while I've never heard the Emersons in Bartók I do think a number of their other recordings are benchmarks. So I'm not going to say you should buy it immediately (it's not easy to find nowadays, anyway), but if you happen to come across it at a reasonable price, do consider it at least.

Karl Henning

The Emersons do divide opinion with their Bartók. (I love 'em.)
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Roberto

#263
Takacs Quartet has 2 recordings from the quartets actually.
The earlier on Hungaroton CDs by the original quartet (Gábor Takács was the prime violinist):
[asin]B00000305T[/asin]

The later on Decca (I think you talk about it):
[asin]B0000042GU[/asin]
At that time Gábor Takács was not the member of the group.

Gábor Takács is now the prime violinist of the Mikrokosmos Quartet which was formed in order to play the Bartók quartets only. They recorded the quartets especially for the Hungaroton's New Bartók Series:
[asin]B002V9P8YQ[/asin]
I have the first Hungaroton set and the New Bartók Series set. The second is quite different. In an interview Gábor Takács said that he is very proud of the first recording. It was my first Bartók SQ set and I like it very much. I talked about the quartets with the viola player of the Mikrokosmos quartet, Sándor Papp and he said that the first recording is good but there were many misprints in the score and the new recording based on the most authentic version of the score. There is a note in the booklet about the appropriate playing of these quartets which is based on Bartók's instructions so this is actually a HIP recording.

EigenUser

I don't hesitate for a second to say that Bartok is my favorite composer, but I honestly haven't been able to get into his string quartets other than the 3rd SQ, which I enjoy.

For me, his masterpiece (i.e. the work that I connect with most) is his "Music for Strings, Percussion, and Celesta". Such a wide range of emotion and mood gets ample coverage in a short period of time. The first movement's fugue reminds me of the "Kyrie" from Ligeti's "Requiem". Parts of it remind me of some of the slower section from the score to Hitchcock's "Psycho". And the last movement -- Bartok throws all caution to the wind with joyful Bulgarian dance rhythms, then returns to a diatonic version of the fugue, then goes back to the dance stuff. A great fake-out ending, too  :laugh:. I love it.

Also, why isn't there an alliterative title for this thread, like "Bartok's Bowl of Goulash" or something similar?  >:(
Beethoven's Op. 133 -- A fugue so bad that even Beethoven himself called it "Grosse".

Mirror Image

Quote from: EigenUser on February 24, 2014, 04:15:40 PM
I don't hesitate for a second to say that Bartok is my favorite composer, but I honestly haven't been able to get into his string quartets other than the 3rd SQ, which I enjoy.

For me, his masterpiece (i.e. the work that I connect with most) is his "Music for Strings, Percussion, and Celesta". Such a wide range of emotion and mood gets ample coverage in a short period of time. The first movement's fugue reminds me of the "Kyrie" from Ligeti's "Requiem". Parts of it remind me of some of the slower section from the score to Hitchcock's "Psycho". And the last movement -- Bartok throws all caution to the wind with joyful Bulgarian dance rhythms, then returns to a diatonic version of the fugue, then goes back to the dance stuff. A great fake-out ending, too  :laugh:. I love it.

Also, why isn't there an alliterative title for this thread, like "Bartok's Bowl of Goulash" or something similar?  >:(

Yes, I love Music for Strings, Percussion, and Celesta as well. Certainly one of his most outstanding orchestral works, but as I stated on another thread I would have a hard to picking between The Miraculous Mandarin and The Wooden Prince. Both of these ballets have such a different emotional temperature. The Miraculous Mandarin is more modern sounding, more gritty while The Wooden Prince is much more folksy and warmer. I just couldn't choose for this very reason.

EigenUser

Quote from: Mirror Image on February 24, 2014, 04:29:22 PM
Yes, I love Music for Strings, Percussion, and Celesta as well. Certainly one of his most outstanding orchestral works, but as I stated on another thread I would have a hard to picking between The Miraculous Mandarin and The Wooden Prince. Both of these ballets have such a different emotional temperature. The Miraculous Mandarin is more modern sounding, more gritty while The Wooden Prince is much more folksy and warmer. I just couldn't choose for this very reason.
I've only heard the "Dance of the Trees" from "The Wooden Prince" and I liked it; just not as much as other stuff. I should listen to the whole thing sometime, but it's an hour long which is off-putting for me. "The Miraculous Mandarin", on the other hand, I find absolutely thrilling!
Beethoven's Op. 133 -- A fugue so bad that even Beethoven himself called it "Grosse".

Mirror Image

#267
Quote from: EigenUser on February 24, 2014, 04:35:18 PM
I've only heard the "Dance of the Trees" from "The Wooden Prince" and I liked it; just not as much as other stuff. I should listen to the whole thing sometime, but it's an hour long which is off-putting for me. "The Miraculous Mandarin", on the other hand, I find absolutely thrilling!

You have a short-attention span, eh? :) Listen to The Wooden Prince in sections at a time. This is probably the easiest way to do it if you're having problems with the work's duration. This said, if you could claim that Bartok is one of your favorites, then I find it incredibly hard to fathom how you could've let The Wooden Prince slip through the cracks? I'm sure you haven't heard any of his chamber music, have you? Have you heard Bluebeard's Castle? What some of the lesser-known works like Cantata Profana, Romanian Dances, Three Village Scenes, Two Portraits, Divertimento for Strings, etc.?

amw

Quote from: EigenUser on February 24, 2014, 04:35:18 PM
I've only heard the "Dance of the Trees" from "The Wooden Prince" and I liked it; just not as much as other stuff. I should listen to the whole thing sometime, but it's an hour long which is off-putting for me.

Could always start with the Wooden Prince Suite (which is only about half as long). I have it on a disc with the Dance Suite and M4SP&C from Saraste/Toronto, but there are probably alternatives if you want to avoid duplicates.

Ken B

Quote from: EigenUser on February 24, 2014, 04:35:18 PM
I've only heard the "Dance of the Trees" from "The Wooden Prince" and I liked it; just not as much as other stuff. I should listen to the whole thing sometime, but it's an hour long which is off-putting for me. "The Miraculous Mandarin", on the other hand, I find absolutely thrilling!
Mikrokosmos was made for the short attention span.


Mirror Image

Quote from: Ken B on February 24, 2014, 06:56:27 PM
Mikrokosmos was made for the short attention span.

We're going to have to get EigenUser to listen to the full ballet of The Wooden Prince. I mean he could settle for the Suite, but why settle for less when the ballet in it's entirety is staring you right in the face? Go for it, EigenUser and may the force be with you! :)

EigenUser

Quote from: Mirror Image on February 24, 2014, 08:14:14 PM
We're going to have to get EigenUser to listen to the full ballet of The Wooden Prince. I mean he could settle for the Suite, but why settle for less when the ballet in it's entirety is staring you right in the face? Go for it, EigenUser and may the force be with you! :)
I will listen to the whole ballet, don't you worry  :P . I'll probably put it on while I'm on GMG later today.

Ironically, I feel very similar about "Daphnis and Chloe" (in response to how you feel about TWP). The 1st and 2nd suite don't cut it for me at all and I'd much rather hear the whole thing, which is pretty much the same length. I think the reason that works is because themes are reused, but in totally different ways. This makes it constantly changing while still fairly easy to follow.

As for "The Miraculous Mandarin", I do listen to the suite, but this only cuts out some stuff at the end. The reason is more superficial than musical, though: I like the loud, dramatic ending of the suite!

Quote from: Ken B on February 24, 2014, 06:56:27 PM
Mikrokosmos was made for the short attention span.
Literally -- it was made for kids learning piano! I've been meaning to learn #153 (the last one) on piano because I've been working on Ligeti's "Fanfares" for the past six months and they have quite a few similarities.

By the way, someone should start a thread for suggestions of pieces fit for people not endowed with a standard attention span (like myself). I might do this later.
Beethoven's Op. 133 -- A fugue so bad that even Beethoven himself called it "Grosse".

Ken B

Quote from: EigenUser on February 25, 2014, 06:01:21 AM
By the way, someone should start a thread for suggestions of pieces fit for people not endowed with a standard attention span (like myself). I might do this later.
I recommend the following 4 pieces which are are really good for that and

EigenUser

Quote from: Ken B on February 25, 2014, 11:36:07 AM
I recommend the following 4 pieces which are are really good for that and
:laugh:

Quote from: Mirror Image on February 24, 2014, 04:57:38 PM
You have a short-attention span, eh? :) Listen to The Wooden Prince in sections at a time. This is probably the easiest way to do it if you're having problems with the work's duration. This said, if you could claim that Bartok is one of your favorites, then I find it incredibly hard to fathom how you could've let The Wooden Prince slip through the cracks? I'm sure you haven't heard any of his chamber music, have you? Have you heard Bluebeard's Castle? What some of the lesser-known works like Cantata Profana, Romanian Dances, Three Village Scenes, Two Portraits, Divertimento for Strings, etc.?

Forgot to answer this:
-"Bluebeard's Castle" -- I heard it once, and also parts of it were in "Leaving Home". It's okay, but I don't know of any operas that I like so I can't fairly judge this
-The string quartets -- I really like the 3rd (and some of the 2nd), but I've heard them all and don't really "get" them other than that
-"Divertimento for Strings" -- I love this piece! I arranged the 3rd movement (Allegro Assai) for violin and piano. It was never performed, but on the weekends in college my friend and I would play this just for fun (me on piano, him on violin).
-"Cantata Profana" -- I heard it once around the time I decided to listen to the opera. So-so for me.
-"Three Village Scenes" -- I'm not sure I know this one. He wrote several things called "X-Y" (where "X" is an integer and "Y" is something like "scenes", "pictures", "sketches") that it's hard to keep track of.
-"Two Portraits" -- This is what TWP reminds me of a little bit.

Some others:
-"44 Duos for Two Violins" -- I have very fond memories of playing through these in high school with my late violin teacher. Whenever I come across the one of the books he gave me with his address stamped on it, it brings a tear to my eye. On a less sentimental note, I have found these invaluable for my understanding of Bartok's music. Even though the first (out of two) book is fairly simple, they exhibit Bartok's proclivity to infuse modern harmonies into old folksong at a very fundamental level (since the "orchestration" is only for two violins)
-"Sonata" (for one piano, and no percussion  :D) -- I've tried learning this at several times throughout the past few years, but it's so much harder than it looks and sounds! I should get around to learning the whole thing one day. Unlike violin, I haven't taken piano lessons, so I have a tendency to dig myself into holes too deep for my poor technical skill to pull me out of.
-"Out of Doors" -- I could probably learn the first four, but the fifth ("The Chase") is wayyy "Out of Reach" for me.
-"Hungarian Sketches" -- Similar to the "Divertimento", I arranged the "Swineherd's Dance" for violin and piano. Except I changed the name to "Shepherd's Dance" (close enough) because the title reminded me too much of the swine flu  :D.
-"Dance Suite" -- We PLAYED THIS IN ORCHESTRA IN COLLEGE! When I was looking at colleges in high school, I met the conductor of the orchestra and he said he really wanted to play this. Right then, even though I wasn't going to study music, I knew where I wanted to go (well, not really, but I ended up going there for non-Bartok reasons). Also, I arranged the third movement (Allegro Vivace) for violin and piano.
-Violin Rhapsodies -- I played the 1st in high school (violin) and was going to learn the 2nd but I stopped lessons when I went to college.
-"Contrasts" -- I was planning to put this together in a chamber ensemble at my college so I learned the violin part well enough to start rehearsal. But, it fell through  :'( . I was furious. The 3rd movement cadenza rocks!

By the way, I find the Boosey&Hawkes covers of a lot of his sheet music a bit intimidating.

I mean, I like Bartok, but this is a bit too close.
Beethoven's Op. 133 -- A fugue so bad that even Beethoven himself called it "Grosse".

Ken B

Slipping quietly through the Bartok crowd, the early music interloper sidled up to him with the short attention span and whispered but two words, Scarlatti sonatas, before melting back into the throng.

Ken B

Quote from: ChamberNut on November 19, 2013, 04:57:15 PM
Indeed, a fine Canadian conductor, and an excellent Canadian chamber orchestra ensemble.
"Double double": now it means hockey and curling
8)

EigenUser

Quote from: Ken B on February 25, 2014, 03:43:24 PM
Slipping quietly through the Bartok crowd, the early music interloper sidled up to him with the short attention span and whispered but two words, Scarlatti sonatas, before melting back into the throng.
Interesting. I've heard from several sources that Bartok was highly interested in the music of Scarlatti. All baroque, in general, but that name always comes up. I'm not sure if this amounts more to a personal opinion, but I think that Bartok's knowledge of baroque counterpoint is what makes his music so good (in terms of structure).
Beethoven's Op. 133 -- A fugue so bad that even Beethoven himself called it "Grosse".

Mirror Image

Quote from: EigenUser on February 25, 2014, 02:31:05 PM
:laugh:

Forgot to answer this:
-"Bluebeard's Castle" -- I heard it once, and also parts of it were in "Leaving Home". It's okay, but I don't know of any operas that I like so I can't fairly judge this
-The string quartets -- I really like the 3rd (and some of the 2nd), but I've heard them all and don't really "get" them other than that
-"Divertimento for Strings" -- I love this piece! I arranged the 3rd movement (Allegro Assai) for violin and piano. It was never performed, but on the weekends in college my friend and I would play this just for fun (me on piano, him on violin).
-"Cantata Profana" -- I heard it once around the time I decided to listen to the opera. So-so for me.
-"Three Village Scenes" -- I'm not sure I know this one. He wrote several things called "X-Y" (where "X" is an integer and "Y" is something like "scenes", "pictures", "sketches") that it's hard to keep track of.
-"Two Portraits" -- This is what TWP reminds me of a little bit.

Some others:
-"44 Duos for Two Violins" -- I have very fond memories of playing through these in high school with my late violin teacher. Whenever I come across the one of the books he gave me with his address stamped on it, it brings a tear to my eye. On a less sentimental note, I have found these invaluable for my understanding of Bartok's music. Even though the first (out of two) book is fairly simple, they exhibit Bartok's proclivity to infuse modern harmonies into old folksong at a very fundamental level (since the "orchestration" is only for two violins)
-"Sonata" (for one piano, and no percussion  :D) -- I've tried learning this at several times throughout the past few years, but it's so much harder than it looks and sounds! I should get around to learning the whole thing one day. Unlike violin, I haven't taken piano lessons, so I have a tendency to dig myself into holes too deep for my poor technical skill to pull me out of.
-"Out of Doors" -- I could probably learn the first four, but the fifth ("The Chase") is wayyy "Out of Reach" for me.
-"Hungarian Sketches" -- Similar to the "Divertimento", I arranged the "Swineherd's Dance" for violin and piano. Except I changed the name to "Shepherd's Dance" (close enough) because the title reminded me too much of the swine flu  :D.
-"Dance Suite" -- We PLAYED THIS IN ORCHESTRA IN COLLEGE! When I was looking at colleges in high school, I met the conductor of the orchestra and he said he really wanted to play this. Right then, even though I wasn't going to study music, I knew where I wanted to go (well, not really, but I ended up going there for non-Bartok reasons). Also, I arranged the third movement (Allegro Vivace) for violin and piano.
-Violin Rhapsodies -- I played the 1st in high school (violin) and was going to learn the 2nd but I stopped lessons when I went to college.
-"Contrasts" -- I was planning to put this together in a chamber ensemble at my college so I learned the violin part well enough to start rehearsal. But, it fell through  :'( . I was furious. The 3rd movement cadenza rocks!

By the way, I find the Boosey&Hawkes covers of a lot of his sheet music a bit intimidating.

I mean, I like Bartok, but this is a bit too close.

You think Bluebeard's Castle is just 'okay' and that Cantata Profana is 'so so,' it's okay we can still be friends. ;D

Ken B

Quote from: Mirror Image on February 25, 2014, 06:00:05 PM
You think Bluebeard's Castle is just 'okay' and that Cantata Profana is 'so so,' it's okay we can still be friends. ;D
He also thinks James is a great guy who makes perfect sense.

>:D >:D  >:D >:D >:D >:D :laugh: >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D :blank:

Mirror Image

Quote from: Ken B on February 25, 2014, 06:05:51 PM
He also thinks James is a great guy who makes perfect sense.

>:D >:D  >:D >:D >:D >:D :laugh: >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D :blank:

Really? ??? Oh dear....