Bach's St. Matthew Passion

Started by Bogey, December 10, 2007, 05:56:01 PM

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Biffo

Quote from: Que on April 07, 2019, 09:32:10 PM
After three years of inactivity,  anything new?  :)

Q

Nothing new from me. The last version I bought was from Rene Jacobs (harmonia mundi) in 2015. I usually like Jacobs' recordings but this was disappointing, not incisive enough for me. I am sure I seen/heard new versions reviewed and possibly even sampled them but none stick in my mind.

Ghost of Baron Scarpia

Quote from: Que on April 07, 2019, 09:32:10 PM
After three years of inactivity,  anything new?  :)

Q

Unless Kurt Equiluz comes out of retirement, I have no need for more recordings of the St Matthew Passion.

Mandryka

#382


I've been listening to Egarr's operatic interpretation of the first (1727) version. He says this in the booklet

QuoteI encouraged all the players and singers to take risks with timing and freedom of expression, both in note, word and ornamental deed. I feel this music is so rich and demands a flexibility of tempo and dynamic equal to any found in the 19th century, although of course delivered with the sensibilities of the 17th and 18th centuries.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

knight66

#383
Quote from: Mandryka on April 08, 2019, 09:13:21 PM


I've been listening to Egarr's operatic interpretation of the first (1727) version. He says this in the booklet

I have also been listening to this recording. I bought it as my musical prep for this year's Easter.

This is one of, I think, only three recordings of this earlier 1727 version of the piece. I find it refreshing and it surprises the ear with the many small differences in vocal lines and the one or two more substantial differences. Additionally, the conductor, Richard Egarr is fairly interventionist.

Some obvious differences are that the ripieno in the opening chorus is taken by organ and woodwind and is less prominent than that soaring soprano line contribution in the later version. The great final chorus of the first part is missing, instead we have a fairly perfunctory chorale. And the bass aria normally accompanied by viola da gamba has instead, a mandolin.

The manuscript indicates in Bach's hand some tempo alterations within numbers and this is taken as justification for introducing gear changes in various places, most noticably in the opening chorus. Taken at quite a lick, the middle section is speeded up. Describing this to me, I am sure I would not like it, but listening to it, it provided a real sense of urgency. And here we get a clue to the whole approach. While not devoid of introspection, the thrust of this performance is dramatic storytelling. I do sometimes feel rushed and I really value and prefer some stasis at key points of the journey, but I really was swept up in this entire approach.

Another stylistic choice first shows up in the initial alto solo where the instrumental bars are provided with fermatas, leaning into the woodwind notes. This is a mannerism to far, but is over quite quickly.

The soloists are exceptional. James Gilchrist is absolutely the the right narrator to hold all this together. A crystalline, pure voice, clear, clean, sweet and with a  dramatic grip on proceedings. Maltman is superb, and Sarah Connolly also is pure pleasure. We lose one of her arias to Christopher Maltman, but that is loss and equal gain. Matthew Rose has warmth and Elizabeth Watts has purity. Her duet with Connolly is a high point, though the dramatic double chorus after it lacks visceral impact.

The chorus is two or three to a part and I don't notice the separation between chorus 1 and chorus 2. The various solo players are excellent and the Academy of Ancient Music is of course polished.

I enjoy the performance a lot, despite feeling that the conductor has rather thrust his ideas at us. Although swift in the main, I feel that is mostly to serve and stress the drama whereas in Gardiner's first version, I always felt his main aim was to prove that he was not Klemperer. So I am glad to add this set to the group of performances I have of the later standard version of the score. It is a good palate cleanser and made me think of the choices Bach had taken to arrive at what we regard as a cornerstone of Western music.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

Marc

Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on April 08, 2019, 08:04:18 AM
Unless Kurt Equiluz comes out of retirement, I have no need for more recordings of the St Matthew Passion.

:laugh:

Marc

Quote from: knight66 on April 08, 2019, 10:50:48 PM
[...]

Some obvious differences are that the ripieno in the opening chorus is taken by organ and woodwind and is less prominent than that soaring soprano line contribution in the later version. The great final chorus of the first part is missing, instead we have a fairly perfunctory chorale. And the bass aria normally accompanied by viola da gamba has instead, a mandolin. [...]

I think it's a lute.
Not able to check it out right now, but, iirc, the lute is only accompanied by an organ continuo (so no violoncello or bass viol, either).

Personally, I prefer the gamba et al of the later version... it makes the tough and painful walk, with all its struggles, more 'visual', whilst the gamba sound also adds something to the sweetness of this suffering. That's probably what I like so much about instruments like gamba and viola d'amore... to my ears, their sounds add both sweetness and harshness.

knight66

It might be a lute, I can't check it as I am now away from home on holiday. I had never heard anything other than the da gamba before. The original idea is much more gentle and the da gamba is a brilliant idea to convey the staggering gait of Jesus carrying the cross. Hearing the original is what, for me, threw that light on the great musical imagery of the revision. I like both.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

Marc

Quote from: knight66 on April 09, 2019, 11:01:13 PM
It might be a lute, I can't check it as I am now away from home on holiday. I had never heard anything other than the da gamba before. The original idea is much more gentle and the da gamba is a brilliant idea to convey the staggering gait of Jesus carrying the cross. Hearing the original is what, for me, threw that light on the great musical imagery of the revision. I like both.

Mike

My parents took me to 'their' Matthäus from 1980 on (they sang in an amateur choir), and  the conductor there already chose for a lute, which she explained in the concert booklet by saying that this was according to the first version. She also included the choral "Jesum laß ich nicht von mir" at the end of part 1, combined with the well known "O Mensch...". (So both chorals were sung.)
By doing this, she gave the children who sang the soprani in ripieno (including my sister) more to do. She also added the children's choir to the choral "Was mein Gott will..." to make it sound 'extra strongk' ;).
Well, lots of fun and lots to play with, in this beautiful work!

The bonus to these performances was the Evangelist Howard Crook, who was failry unknown at that point. But that changed very soon!

Marc

This is how I kinda grew up with Bach's Matthäus-Passion.
Palm Sunday, live radio broadcast every year (BWV 244 and 245 alternating) in the Netherlands, with Nikolaus Harnoncourt.

This is the 1985 performance, which was issued on vinyl and compact disc, to collect money for the restoration of the Concertgebouw.
About 10 years later, Harnoncourt wanted this recording to be withdrawn from the Teldec catalogue... just before I finally had the money to buy it. :'(

It's a HIP-influenced (of course) performance, with modern instruments, an amateur choir (yes!) and many 'operatic' soloists. But Kurt Equiluz, my eternal hero ;), is the Evangelist. Other well-known names are a.o. Arleen Augér, Robert Holl and Ruud van der Meer. Jaap van Zweden, now conductor in New York, is the 1st violinist and he plays the solo in "Erbarme dich, mein Gott".

https://www.youtube.com/v/_U1WTC8wWr4

Kurt Equiluz , Tenor (Evangelista)
Robert Holl, Bass (Jesus)
Arleen Augér, Soprano I (Uxor Pilati 'Pilate's Wife'/ Ancilla I '1st Maid')
Sheri Greenawald, Soprano II
Jadwiga Rappé, Alto I (Ancilla II '2nd Maid')
Jard van Nes, Alto II (Testis '1st Witness')
Neil Rosenshein, Tenor (Arien, Testis '2nd Witness')
Ruud van der Meer, Bass I (Judas/Petrus/Pilatus/1st Priest)
Anton Scharinger, Bass II (2nd Priest)

Jongenskoor van de St. Bavo-kathedraal, Haarlem (direction: Fons Ziekman)
Koor van het Concertgebouw Orkest, Amsterdam (direction: Jan Slothouwer)
Concertgebouw Orkest, Amsterdam
Conductor: Nikolaus Harnoncourt
Palm Sunday, March 31, 1985




GioCar

Does anyone already listened to the new Suzuki?



I've just started with the "Komm ihr Töchter". Beautiful and intense pacing on the slow side.

Biffo

Quote from: Marc on April 05, 2020, 02:05:49 PM
This is how I kinda grew up with Bach's Matthäus-Passion.
Palm Sunday, live radio broadcast every year (BWV 244 and 245 alternating) in the Netherlands, with Nikolaus Harnoncourt.

This is the 1985 performance, which was issued on vinyl and compact disc, to collect money for the restoration of the Concertgebouw.
About 10 years later, Harnoncourt wanted this recording to be withdrawn from the Teldec catalogue... just before I finally had the money to buy it. :'(

It's a HIP-influenced (of course) performance, with modern instruments, an amateur choir (yes!) and many 'operatic' soloists. But Kurt Equiluz, my eternal hero ;), is the Evangelist. Other well-known names are a.o. Arleen Augér, Robert Holl and Ruud van der Meer. Jaap van Zweden, now conductor in New York, is the 1st violinist and he plays the solo in "Erbarme dich, mein Gott".

https://www.youtube.com/v/_U1WTC8wWr4

Kurt Equiluz , Tenor (Evangelista)
Robert Holl, Bass (Jesus)
Arleen Augér, Soprano I (Uxor Pilati 'Pilate's Wife'/ Ancilla I '1st Maid')
Sheri Greenawald, Soprano II
Jadwiga Rappé, Alto I (Ancilla II '2nd Maid')
Jard van Nes, Alto II (Testis '1st Witness')
Neil Rosenshein, Tenor (Arien, Testis '2nd Witness')
Ruud van der Meer, Bass I (Judas/Petrus/Pilatus/1st Priest)
Anton Scharinger, Bass II (2nd Priest)

Jongenskoor van de St. Bavo-kathedraal, Haarlem (direction: Fons Ziekman)
Koor van het Concertgebouw Orkest, Amsterdam (direction: Jan Slothouwer)
Concertgebouw Orkest, Amsterdam
Conductor: Nikolaus Harnoncourt
Palm Sunday, March 31, 1985

I have this performance but only on cassette and currently I have no way of playing it. For a time it was the only version I owned and I used to listen to it every year; now I have Harnoncourt's later Teldec recording (2001) with Concentus musicus Wien plus several other versions.

Marc

Quote from: Biffo on April 06, 2020, 01:30:29 AM
I have this performance but only on cassette and currently I have no way of playing it. For a time it was the only version I owned and I used to listen to it every year; now I have Harnoncourt's later Teldec recording (2001) with Concentus musicus Wien plus several other versions.

This 'live' performance is special to me because of sentimental journey associations, without being the 'best' performance I ever heard. But it's got a great atmosphere and story teller Kurt Equiluz is Premier League. Arleen Augér is great too (her voice 'breaks' in "Aus Liebe..." but it actually makes it more emotional), and also Ruud van der Meer delivers some goodies, especially in the recitatives as Judas, Peter and Pilate, and in "Am Abend da es kühle war".

In earlier years, Harnoncourt performed this piece in Amsterdam with the Nederlands Kamerkoor and Collegium Vocale Gent (with a young Philippe Herreweghe). Those performances were better imho. Peter van der Bilt sang the part of Jesus in those earlier broadcasts and he was brilliant. Unfortunately he died way too young.

Marc

Quote from: GioCar on April 05, 2020, 10:07:36 PM
Does anyone already listened to the new Suzuki?



[...]

I do apologize, but I haven't. I'm sitting on my money right now.
I planned to order it at the central library here, but I can't collect it right now, because the library is closed due to the virus.

(Herreweghe got a 3rd recording of BWV 245 (SJP) out, btw. The same story applies to that one... hopefully later. :))

Handelian

This is of course one of the greatest works ever written by mankind in both its music and theme. I can still remember the first time I actually heard it in that I had brought the 1958 Richter recording as a gift for my other half and we sat to listen. The sound of the first pedal brought the hairs of my head standing up. That deep growl in the base. Then the sound of 'come ye daughters' and the musical shock as the ripiano choir comes in with the chorale. Incredible stuff.
I still have the old Richter recording on CD but we have moved a bit by then.
Another old style recording I have is the Karajan but that is a bit of an indulgence. It is a reminder of the Easter festival where he used to conduct it every year.
However in more modern and authentic recordings the following I have found to give satisfaction and around my shelf:
Gardiner - very well sung all round but perhaps a bit missing in the spiritual side
Herreweghe I - certainly a version to be reckoned with as it combines a modern approach with a deep spirituality
Harnoncourt - his final version might be the best all-round as it combines a lifetime of experience with pragmatic historical practice
Jacobs - This is quirkily recorded but has the best opening chorus. As ever with Jacob he has something to say and it is a tremendously dramatic performance but with certain controversial aspects.
McCreesh - one to a part performance - I bought it because it was cheap just to dry it out but I really love it. Swift speeds as Bach intended but not over rushed
I attended a performance the other year that combined one in a part with a choir and thought it was a very good compromise. Tremendously moving evening. It really showed you don't have to drag the music out for it to move you.

Brahmsian

Quote from: Handelian on November 06, 2020, 10:23:54 PM

McCreesh - one to a part performance - I bought it because it was cheap just to dry it out but I really love it. Swift speeds as Bach intended but not over rushed
I attended a performance the other year that combined one in a part with a choir and thought it was a very good compromise. Tremendously moving evening. It really showed you don't have to drag the music out for it to move you.

Oh my, I just adore this performance.

knight66

Quote from: OrchestralNut on January 09, 2021, 09:48:10 AM
Oh my, I just adore this performance.

The McCreesh is my favourite version, though I would like to spend time with the new Suzuki. I also have moved gradually across the years from needing Bach and Handel to sound massive in order to sound glorious and epic. Both Richter versions and Klemperer. When I was about 18 I bought the all male Harnoncourt version, but the contrast was too great, too hair shirt and I mainly left it on the shelf.

Hearing the start of the opening chorus reminds me that I am starting a great journey, but as most Bach is based on dance rhythms the likes of Klemperer and his 12 minute chorus started to sound grotesque to me.

I was a member of a large symphony chorus and I suppose I had a vested interest iin everything possible being sung with a big chorus. We performed the St Matthew with Abbado. One week before the concert he decided he wanted the chorus cut down in size. It was a difficult process, but being included in the smaller, but hardly small, chorus taught me a number of things. Textures were clearer, we could hear the instruments more often, words became crisper and we listened to one another in a different way. And everyone had that bit more responsibility to be on the ball.

Soon after that I started to listen to smaller scale performances. I had the Parrott version of the B minor Mass and that was the turning point, one to a part and it provided all the drama, colour and expression I needed. So, the McCreesh St Matthew was a must buy and fairly swift yet very expressive, lifting and dancing the rhythms and terrific solo singing, it has become the one my fingers twitch over when I am going to give the piece a listen. I have not got rid of my old style Bach, there is lots to enjoy. My journey has been about widening my taste and understanding rather than evangelising the newish performance styles.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

Brahmsian

Quote from: knight66 on January 09, 2021, 10:48:19 AM
The McCreesh is my favourite version, though I would like to spend time with the new Suzuki. I also have moved gradually across the years from needing Bach and Handel to sound massive in order to sound glorious and epic. Both Richter versions and Klemperer. When I was about 18 I bought the all male Harnoncourt version, but the contrast was too great, too hair shirt and I mainly left it on the shelf.

Hearing the start of the opening chorus reminds me that I am starting a great journey, but as most Bach is based on dance rhythms the likes of Klemperer and his 12 minute chorus started to sound grotesque to me.

I was a member of a large symphony chorus and I suppose I had a vested interest iin everything possible being sung with a big chorus. We performed the St Matthew with Abbado. One week before the concert he decided he wanted the chorus cut down in size. It was a difficult process, but being included in the smaller, but hardly small, chorus taught me a number of things. Textures were clearer, we could hear the instruments more often, words became crisper and we listened to one another in a different way. And everyone had that bit more responsibility to be on the ball.

Soon after that I started to listen to smaller scale performances. I had the Parrott version of the B minor Mass and that was the turning point, one to a part and it provided all the drama, colour and expression I needed. So, the McCreesh St Matthew was a must buy and fairly swift yet very expressive, lifting and dancing the rhythms and terrific solo singing, it has become the one my fingers twitch over when I am going to give the piece a listen. I have not got rid of my old style Bach, there is lots to enjoy. My journey has been about widening my taste and understanding rather than evangelising the newish performance styles.

Mike

A most interesting and appreciated post, Mike. Thank you for sharing!  :)

knight66

Quote from: OrchestralNut on January 10, 2021, 04:31:59 AM
A most interesting and appreciated post, Mike. Thank you for sharing!  :)

Thanks very much for that.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

Handelian

I have just obtained Herreweghe II at almost give-away price. It is very fine indeed what I have listened to so far.

bhodges

Quote from: OrchestralNut on January 10, 2021, 04:31:59 AM
A most interesting and appreciated post, Mike. Thank you for sharing!  :)

I agree (and I don't know the piece well). But this is the kind of commentary that should be part of a book. (Hint, hint.  8) )

--Bruce