Bach's St. Matthew Passion

[Jay F]

Sir, you have superb musical taste.

Thank you. And you, sir, appear to have superb taste in canines.

[Coopmv]

I finished listening to the second St Matthew Passion by Herreweghe yesterday in a hurry.  I thought the performance was qutie refreshing.  Ian Bostridge, Dietrich Henschel and Bernarda Fink were all excellent.  It will probably take me a very thorough listen before I can decide where it ranks among all the versions I have ...

[jlaurson]

If anyone's interested: I've listened closely to the Butt & Guttenberg M-Passions and wrote about them here:

Two Saint Matthew Passions (John Butt)

and here:

Two Saint Matthew Passions (Enoch zu Guttenberg)

Guttenberg's performance of the Matthew Passion around Easter are an institution, known to be consistently individual, 'unique' interpretations. When I sat in the Philharmonic Hall on Good Friday to listen to what was my fourth Matthew Passion in six days, I spectacularly failed to get it.

Part of the problem: I listened lazily. I didn't participate; I simply wanted to let the music do the work of enthralling me. A miscalculation, as it turned out, because as I did not bother with the text, the musical choices of Guttenberg ended up annoying me to no end. Unable or unwilling to put them in context, I found the interpretation awkward, the performance disappointed me, and that disappointment angered me.

A few weeks after Easter I was sent the Guttenberg 2003 recording (apparently just now issued or re-issued outside Germany by Farao). Knowing several expert ears to be very fond of Guttenberg's very particular interpretation, I had the chance to give it another try, to give it its due time, respect, and engagement. That made all the difference.

 

[rubio]

More Leonhardt today. This could be my favoured St. Matthew Passion (with strong competition from Herreweghes 1st recording). Leonhardt brings forward a performance which is contemplative, solemn and with other-worldly, mystical qualities. He is quite slow and that suits my taste, and the use of a Boy's choir works excellently. What do you other people think about this recording?

[Coopmv]

More Leonhardt today. This could be my favoured St. Matthew Passion (with strong competition from Herreweghes 1st recording). Leonhardt brings forward a performance which is contemplative, solemn and with other-worldly, mystical qualities. He is quite slow and that suits my taste, and the use of a Boy's choir works excellently. What do you other people think about this recording?

I may have to add this version to my collection before I can voice my opinion.  The version by Karajan and the BPO is also criticized for being slow, which I have.  IMO, John Eliot Gardiner's version is a tad too fast for my taste.  BTW, I have every passion and oratorio by Gardiner on individual sets, not the big box.

[Antoine Marchand]

More Leonhardt today. This could be my favoured St. Matthew Passion (with strong competition from Herreweghes 1st recording). Leonhardt brings forward a performance which is contemplative, solemn and with other-worldly, mystical qualities. He is quite slow and that suits my taste, and the use of a Boy's choir works excellently. What do you other people think about this recording?

I agree with you, Rubio. It is also my preferred version because of the almost priestly quality so usual in Leonhardt, both as a director and as a performer. This quality, I think, is shared by Sigiswald Kuijken, especially when he is a soloist. Their respect for the composer and his output -Bach particularly- is almost "tangible" in the atmosphere of their performances.

I have some other Passions (Herreweghe I, Gardiner, Veldhoven, Fasolis, Jeffrey Thomas, Koopman II, John Butt), but my second choice is Hermann Max on Capriccio, probably rather different to Leonhardt: more alert, more dramatic, very beautiful.

[Coopmv]

Just finished listening to this 1950 St Matthew Passion by Karajan and the Vienna Symphony.  The remastering from the original Austrian Radio tape was quite good.  It was a live recording with Walther Ludwig in the role of the Evangelist and Kathleen Ferrier in the role of contralto.  Both were outstanding.  This was also the pre-excessive legato Karajan and the performance was lively.  I thoroughly enjoyed this live performance almost 60 years later ...

[Coopmv]

The Mengleberg's St Matthew Passion is on my shopping list.

[prémont]

I have some other Passions (Herreweghe I, Gardiner, Veldhoven, Fasolis, Jeffrey Thomas, Koopman II, John Butt), but my second choice is Hermann Max on Capriccio, probably rather different to Leonhardt: more alert, more dramatic, very beautiful.

I think I notice some signs of latent completism here. So you surely know the symptoms. 

BTW I agree with Rubio you about Leonhardt´s St. Matthew, which has been my preferred version during many years. And Max who is so very different.

[Antoine Marchand]

I think I notice some signs of latent completism here. So you surely know the symptoms. 

No, no... a friend of mine diagnosed this as discerning selectiveness. And he knows what's talking about, Premont. 

[Marc]

More Leonhardt today. This could be my favoured St. Matthew Passion (with strong competition from Herreweghes 1st recording). Leonhardt brings forward a performance which is contemplative, solemn and with other-worldly, mystical qualities. He is quite slow and that suits my taste, and the use of a Boy's choir works excellently. What do you other people think about this recording?

I agree with you, Rubio. It is also my preferred version because of the almost priestly quality so usual in Leonhardt, both as a director and as a performer. This quality, I think, is shared by Sigiswald Kuijken, especially when he is a soloist. Their respect for the composer and his output -Bach particularly- is almost "tangible" in the atmosphere of their performances.

I have some other Passions (Herreweghe I, Gardiner, Veldhoven, Fasolis, Jeffrey Thomas, Koopman II, John Butt), but my second choice is Hermann Max on Capriccio, probably rather different to Leonhardt: more alert, more dramatic, very beautiful.

Herreweghe I, Leonhardt and Max are probably (I'm just not sure ) among my favourites, too. I think Leonhardt really makes it a Lutheran service. Herreweghe and Crook c.s. tell a great story in the first recording  of Ph. H. (and I can't really stand Bostridge in the second). Max is kind of a mystery to me: he's very fast, but never sounding hasty. A pity Monika Frimmer was not in her best shape, though.
I also have a weak spot for all the Harnoncourt recordings, btw.
So, in the end: .

But passion & suffering is over from today, let's move on to ..... .

[Coopmv]

Now I know why the St John is shorter than the St Matthew!  It doesn't really bother me that the St Matthew Passion is so long though because it's such a great, beautiful work.

I think there are more recordings of St Matthew Passion out there too.  Here are the last two versions I bought, both historical recordings ...

[Antoine Marchand]

Yesterday I bought the Herreweghe's second recording of the Matthäus Passion (apparently, he has a third one now).

I think I will be busy with this box set for some days (3 CDs, CD-rom & printed booklet), especially checking the attractive CD-rom included in the box.

Although this recording has been mentioned here a number of times, never it has been commented. Obviously, my impressions are preliminary, but two or three ideas have been going round and round in my mind since yesterday:

- I see here a preference for the treatment of the vocal material over the instrumental aspects: this is a recording for voices accompanied by instruments. It sounds stupid, I know, because after all I am speaking about a major vocal work, but I have in mind that usually HIP recordings have a very detailed and/or focused treatment of the instruments... just a thing of emphasis or "soundstage" of the recording
 
- Herreweghe privileges certain "legato" approach over the "staccato" more typically HIP. This choice move this performance away from the HIP origins and it recalls, distantly for sure, some performances of the fifties and sixties, where the structure is emphasized over the instrumental details.

- Additionally, the choice of this approach produces some separation of the idea about the Baroque music as a "speech" -in this case as a "sermon"- and certain "objectivity" is abandoned in favor of the drama.

I need to listen to the first Herreweghe's recording again...

[ccar]

Herman Scherchen conducted one of the most moving St. Mattew's I have ever listened. Beautiful singing (Hugues Cuenod as the Evangelist,  Laszlo, Rossel-Majdan, Munteanu, Standen, Rehfus, Wachter, Equiluz), the Vienna Kammerchor and the Vienna State Opera Orchestra led by Walter Barylli.

His 1953 performance may be quite "modern" in the sense of drive and musical transparency but contrary to some historically "correct" performers Scherchen doesn't seem to search for a demonstration of Bach's "original" tempi, orchestration or instrumentation. The magic of Scherchen's St. Matthew Passion is the way his huge musical talent was able, in each moment, to combine emotional intimacy with the energy of a spiritual exhortation.

Carlos

[Coopmv]

I am quite happy with the Karl Richter's St Matthew Passion on 2 DVD's.  While it is not HIP, Peter Schreier was superb as the evangelist who provided the narrative.  Julia Hamari was another standout in her mezzo-soprano role that conveyed all the emotions that were expected.  All in all, it was a very satisfying and engaging set.  For a work such as St Matthew Passion or any other massive choral works, orchestral playing really contributes no more than 50% of the overall success and whether it is really HIP is not all that important.

[Marc]

Yesterday I bought the Herreweghe's second recording of the Matthäus Passion (apparently, he has a third one now).

A third one? Really? Do you have a link?

I think I will be busy with this box set for some days (3 CDs, CD-rom & printed booklet), especially checking the attractive CD-rom included in the box.

Although this recording has been mentioned here a number of times, never it has been commented. Obviously, my impressions are preliminary, but two or three ideas have been going round and round in my mind since yesterday:

- I see here a preference for the treatment of the vocal material over the instrumental aspects: this is a recording for voices accompanied by instruments. It sounds stupid, I know, because after all I am speaking about a major vocal work, but I have in mind that usually HIP recordings have a very detailed and/or focused treatment of the instruments... just a thing of emphasis or "soundstage" of the recording
 
- Herreweghe privileges certain "legato" approach over the "staccato" more typically HIP. This choice move this performance away from the HIP origins and it recalls, distantly for sure, some performances of the fifties and sixties, where the structure is emphasized over the instrumental details.

- Additionally, the choice of this approach produces some separation of the idea about the Baroque music as a "speech" -in this case as a "sermon"- and certain "objectivity" is abandoned in favor of the drama.

I need to listen to the first Herreweghe's recording again...

Oh yes, I remember Herreweghe said a lot about music as speech and singing, in a Dutch book about the SMP tradition in Amsterdam. I'm too lazy to check it out; but he admitted that Harnoncourt & Leonhardt were his (and Ton Koopman's) heroes, but both Koopman and he eventually opted for more 'vocal & singing' interpretations in the way we were used to that nowadays.
He also stated that he sometimes preferred the SMP played by modern instruments, whilst the SJP was better served with HIP-instrumentarium, IHO. He said something like: the SJP is a Dürer, and the SMO is a Rembrandt.
So: yes, hardcore HIP-ers will definitely shake their heads in disbelief when they would read that.

Anyway: I prefer his first SMP to his second. But that's .... [what's the word again?] .... PERSONAL!

[Marc]

Posted this in the cantata thread, but it actually belongs here. Just for the record:

[Something about Cleobury's recordings of the Bach passions]

In the SMP I get very moved during O Mensch, bewein' dein Sünde groß. When the boys start singing "Den'n Toten er das Leben gab .... und legt dabei all' Krankheit ab" it's very difficult to keep my eyes dry, I have to admit.
But in general, I think Cleobury's straightforward interpretation of the SJP is better. There are similarities with Gardiner's SJP, and of all Gardiner's vocal Bach attributions I still think his SJP is by far the best. Also, in both (Gardiner's and Cleobury's SJP) there is a good Evangelist, resp. Anthony Rolfe Johnson and John Mark Ainsley. The German pronouncation of the latter is slightly better, but the way Johnson sings "Barabbas aber war ein Mörder! ... Da nahm Pilatus Jesum und geißelte ihn!" is without competition, I dare say.

In Cleobury's SMP it seems that the boys are doing better with their German, but this doesn't go for Evangelist Rogers Covey-Crump. And I also think his interpretation is weak, too laid-back. Beautiful singing, but no he's no probing storyteller like Johnson or Ainsley.

[Coopmv]

Posted this in the cantata thread, but it actually belongs here. Just for the record:

[Something about Cleobury's recordings of the Bach passions]

In the SMP I get very moved during O Mensch, bewein' dein Sünde groß. When the boys start singing "Den'n Toten er das Leben gab .... und legt dabei all' Krankheit ab" it's very difficult to keep my eyes dry, I have to admit.
But in general, I think Cleobury's straightforward interpretation of the SJP is better. There are similarities with Gardiner's SJP, and of all Gardiner's vocal Bach attributions I still think his SJP is by far the best. Also, in both (Gardiner's and Cleobury's SJP) there is a good Evangelist, resp. Anthony Rolfe Johnson and John Mark Ainsley. The German pronouncation of the latter is slightly better, but the way Johnson sings "Barabbas aber war ein Mörder! ... Da nahm Pilatus Jesum und geißelte ihn!" is without competition, I dare say.

In Cleobury's SMP it seems that the boys are doing better with their German, but this doesn't go for Evangelist Rogers Covey-Crump. And I also think his interpretation is weak, too laid-back. Beautiful singing, but no he's no probing storyteller like Johnson or Ainsley.

A case can certainly be made for having an all German/Dutch cast except the orchestra   

[Marc]

Italian instrumentalists, then?

Well, I think it's good that there's a wide variety in the cd market. Some people get nasty habits when they hear the voice of a German boy soprano, you know.

And there would be not much left to talk & discuss about if the market were less diverse!
Still, the universe probably won't change with or without it.

Mmm, better get to bed. I'm getting far too philosophical.

[Coopmv]

Italian instrumentalists, then?

Well, I think it's good that there's a wide variety in the cd market. Some people get nasty habits when they hear the voice of a German boy soprano, you know.

And there would be not much left to talk & discuss about if the market were less diverse!
Still, the universe probably won't change with or without it.

Mmm, better get to bed. I'm getting far too philosophical.

I think a northern European ensemble would do a better job - an English or a Swedish ensemble.  Italian ensembles always strike me as being too warm for Bach.  I have the Brandenburg Concertos recording by I Musici on LP and they were the worst Brandenburg I have ever heard - they were just too warm and played like Vivaldi's concertos.  I think you know what I mean.  Conversely, northern European ensembles tend to make the Vivaldi's concertos too cold.  That is why I am skeptical when an Italian ensemble recorded Handel Concerto Grossi Op. 6.  While diversity is good, though not necessarily leads to good listening experience.