Bach's St. Matthew Passion

Started by Bogey, December 10, 2007, 05:56:01 PM

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Marc

Sure, but to me I Musici is part of a (sweet) history. The early seventies and Music for the Millions.

Nowadays there are many very good baroque ensembles (and conductors) in Italy. And, in general, I have the feeling that they are more daring in their interpretations, especially when compared to some British ensembles.

If I were to choose personally: I'd probably go for La Petite Bande. But tomorrow could be different, who knows.

Coopmv

Quote from: Marc on November 16, 2009, 03:44:54 PM
Sure, but to me I Musici is part of a (sweet) history. The early seventies and Music for the Millions.

Nowadays there are many very good baroque ensembles (and conductors) in Italy. And, in general, I have the feeling that they are more daring in their interpretations, especially when compared to some British ensembles.

If I were to choose personally: I'd probably go for La Petite Bande. But tomorrow could be different, who knows.

Indeed, I am stepping up with my collection of works performed by La Petite Bande as well.  Stay tuned ...

Coopmv

Quote from: Marc on November 16, 2009, 03:44:54 PM
Sure, but to me I Musici is part of a (sweet) history. The early seventies and Music for the Millions.

Nowadays there are many very good baroque ensembles (and conductors) in Italy. And, in general, I have the feeling that they are more daring in their interpretations, especially when compared to some British ensembles.

If I were to choose personally: I'd probably go for La Petite Bande. But tomorrow could be different, who knows.

But there are few that can rival the Amsterdam Baroque Orchestra and Choir ...   ;D

jlaurson

Quote from: Marc on November 16, 2009, 03:44:54 PM
Sure, but to me I Musici is part of a (sweet) history. The early seventies and Music for the Millions.

And good riddance to their sewing-machine baroque.

Coopmv

Quote from: jlaurson on November 16, 2009, 04:08:16 PM
And good riddance to their sewing-machine baroque.

Their performance of works by Vivaldi or Albinoni are listenable ...

Coopmv

Quote from: Marc on November 16, 2009, 03:44:54 PM

Nowadays there are many very good baroque ensembles (and conductors) in Italy. And, in general, I have the feeling that they are more daring in their interpretations, especially when compared to some British ensembles.


But does more daring mean HIP?  Not necessarily in my view ...

Marc

Quote from: jlaurson on November 16, 2009, 04:08:16 PM
And good riddance to their sewing-machine baroque.

Alright.
But when I think of sewing-machine Bach, then Karl Richter comes to mind. (Sorry, fans.)

Marc

#127
Quote from: Coopmv on November 16, 2009, 05:45:56 PM
But does more daring mean HIP?  Not necessarily in my view ...

Well, when one uses HIP and my view in one thought ....  ;)

Although I'm not fond of the words 'HIP' or 'authentic' myself, we apparently need to use it to give the reader any idea what to think about.
Still, HIP is supposed to be investigated by scholars and so on, so in a way 'objective' or at least 'inter-subjective'. 'My view' will remain subjective, though.

To summarize my view about Italian baroque ensembles: I like their way of playing (in general). And I'm afraid that I will continue to do so, even if scholars will prove that they are 'historically wrong' and 'not authentic'.

The same with Leonhardt/Harnoncourt: many scholars nowadays draw other conclusions from history, but I still like their approach. It's nice if history proves that a performance is 'right', but the main factor to me is .... does it satisfy me?

So: Herreweghe satisfies me (very much), Leonhard and Harnoncourt satisfy me, and McCreesh (and, in general, the anglo-saxon approach) doesn't. Even if a situation occurs in which well-informed scholars will be able to prove that Bach needs to be performed OVPP, and therefore say that the listener should go for McCreesh or Rifkin.

Summarized: in Bach, I have a personal view about bringing forward the meaning of the cantata lyrics. If this is done better, in my view, by a choir than by a vocal quartet, I will go for the choir-version. For instance: the worst recording that I've heard in the last few years, was Volume 1 of Bach Cantatas by The Purcell Quartet. In my experience, this performance was totally flat. But I know that others will like it very much, because it's clean and the singing is beautiful. But I don't think that I will have a go at other Volumes of this ensemble.

EDIT: it is true, though, that from the first time I listened to Bach's vocal music (when I was around 13 years of age) I apparently preferred the 'HIP' way of playing above the others. Which means, in short: small ensembles, expressive and vivid phrasing. So, without any historical knowledge whatsoever, I liked Leonhardt/Harnoncourt and Herreweghe very much, I was moderately happy with Charles de Wolff, I was more or less satisfied with Fritz Werner and I wasn't all that happy with Karl Richter and Herbert von Karajan .... those being the ones that I mostly heard those days, whilst listening to the radio.

Antoine Marchand

Jos van Veldhoven, conductor of The Netherlands Bach Society, speaking about different issues of performance in Matthäus-Passion:


                             http://www.youtube.com/v/vSWyUrKPEuI

Coopmv

Quote from: Marc on November 18, 2009, 04:05:58 AM

So: Herreweghe satisfies me (very much), Leonhard and Harnoncourt satisfy me, and McCreesh (and, in general, the anglo-saxon approach) doesn't. Even if a situation occurs in which well-informed scholars will be able to prove that Bach needs to be performed OVPP, and therefore say that the listener should go for McCreesh or Rifkin.

Summarized: in Bach, I have a personal view about bringing forward the meaning of the cantata lyrics. If this is done better, in my view, by a choir than by a vocal quartet, I will go for the choir-version. For instance: the worst recording that I've heard in the last few years, was Volume 1 of Bach Cantatas by The Purcell Quartet. In my experience, this performance was totally flat. But I know that others will like it very much, because it's clean and the singing is beautiful. But I don't think that I will have a go at other Volumes of this ensemble.


When it comes to Bach Cantatas and Passions, I always look to the German/Dutch ensembles/choirs.  But for Handel Oratorios, I only go for the English ensembles/choirs since they are the only ones that can perform those works right.  BTW, I have heard some pretty bad Water Music performed by some German ensemble in my lifetime as well. 

Coopmv

I actually have the DVD on Karajan conducting Bach Magnificat in 1984 New Year Concert.  I thought these YouTubes are kind of entertaining ...

YouTube on Karajan conducting Bach Magnificat

YouTube on Karajan conducting Bach Magnificat segment two

Karajan conducting Brandenburg Cto No. 3 from harpsichord

Dancing Divertimentian

Quote from: Coopmv on November 21, 2009, 03:48:54 PM
But for Handel Oratorios, I only go for the English ensembles/choirs since they are the only ones that can perform those works right. 

Absolutely not correct, Coop.
Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

Coopmv


Dancing Divertimentian

Quote from: Coopmv on November 21, 2009, 06:47:05 PM
Back up your claim!

Say what? I made no claim! I merely responded to YOUR claim.
Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

Renfield

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on November 21, 2009, 07:26:49 PM
Say what? I made no claim! I merely responded to YOUR claim.

By making a counter-claim, that needs backing like any other claim does. Presumably you had something in mind...


(For the record, I am actually curious about the matter of Handel oratorios and performance styles.)

Sorin Eushayson

#135
Sorry for coming in late on this discussion.  I've listened around on this piece; Gardiner seems good, as does McCreesh.  Don't care for Harnoncourt or Herreweghe's work with Bach, they seem out of touch, but that might just be me.  I really like the performance found on the Brilliant Classics Bach Edition, though, with Stephen Cleobury, the Brandenburg Consort, and the Choir of King's College Cambridge - this goes for the Johannespassion as well.  They strike a nice middle ground.  Boys choir is a bonus for me as well.  Anyhow, that's my two cents worth.  ;)

Coopmv

Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on November 21, 2009, 10:48:59 PM
Sorry for coming in late on this discussion.  I've listened around on this piece; Gardiner seems good, as does McCreesh.  Don't care for Harnoncourt or Herreweghe's work with Bach, they seem out of touch, but that might just be me.  I really like the performance found on the Brilliant Classics Bach Edition, though, with Stephen Cleobury, the Brandenburg Consort, and the Choir of King's College Cambridge - this goes for the Johannespassion as well.  They strike a nice middle ground.  Boys choir is a bonus for me as well.  Anyhow, that's my two cents worth.  ;)

In all fairness, Harnoncourt and his Concentus Musicus have been the only non-English ensemble that have recorded a good number of Handel oratorios which are largely respectable.  But they are the exceptions since Harnoncourt was the pioneer in the HIP movement.

Dancing Divertimentian

Quote from: Renfield on November 21, 2009, 10:20:50 PM
By making a counter-claim, that needs backing like any other claim does. Presumably you had something in mind...

Well, a one-liner assertion deserves little more than a one-liner counter-assertion. At least that's how I viewed it.

Now, if Coop wishes to pursue this issue I'd be happy to oblige him but I prefer to hear it from him. That's not asking too much, is it?

Quote(For the record, I am actually curious about the matter of Handel oratorios and performance styles.)

All I can tell you is what my ears tell me. I own several Handel Oratorios by Peter Neumann with his German band (on MDG) and the results are extraordinary. No lapses when compared to either Gardiner or Hogwood, which I also own.

Perhaps Coop has yet to encounter Neumann's recordings?
Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

Coopmv

#138
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on November 22, 2009, 07:25:03 AM
Well, a one-liner assertion deserves little more than a one-liner counter-assertion. At least that's how I viewed it.

Now, if Coop wishes to pursue this issue I'd be happy to oblige him but I prefer to hear it from him. That's not asking too much, is it?

All I can tell you is what my ears tell me. I own several Handel Oratorios by Peter Neumann with his German band (on MDG) and the results are extraordinary. No lapses when compared to either Gardiner or Hogwood, which I also own.

Perhaps Coop has yet to encounter Neumann's recordings?

There are very few recorded Handel's oratorios and operas that I do not already own.  Pardon my ignorance but I have never heard of Peter Neumann and am not likely to buy any of his Handel oratorios.  My Handel's oratorios are by Gardiner, Hogwood, Pinnock, Harnoncourt, Christe and King in addition to Colin Davis, Marriner and Mackerras (and I forgot to mention Raymond Leppard) from the old school.  I just bought EVERY Handel's Oratorio by the King's Consort last spring and they were all excellent (thanks to the sale jobs by Elgarian and DA).  I am not convinced Peter Neumann is better than all these conductors collectively.  Moreover, I do not see many reviews of his recordings on Amazon, which I use partially to gauge their receptions by the listening public.  The collective wisdom of listeners, I am afraid, are behind me.  BTW, I also have every Handel's opera by Alan Curtis except Ezio.  The remaining operas are spread between Gardiner, Hogwood, Malgoire and Minkowski ...

Bulldog

Quote from: Coopmv on November 22, 2009, 09:51:58 AM
There are very few recorded Handel's oratorios and operas that I do not already own.  Pardon my ignorance but I have never heard of Peter Neumann and am not likely to buy any of his Handel oratorios. 

Ignorance and stubborness are a fine mix.