Bach's St. Matthew Passion

Started by Bogey, December 10, 2007, 05:56:01 PM

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Dancing Divertimentian

Quote from: Coopmv on November 22, 2009, 09:51:58 AMThere are very few recorded Handel's oratorios and operas that I do not already own.  Pardon my ignorance but I have never heard of Peter Neumann and am not likely to buy any of his Handel oratorios.

So? What does this have to do with anything? 

QuoteMy Handel's oratorios are by Gardiner, Hogwood, Pinnock, Harnoncourt, Christe and King in addition to Colin Davis, Marriner and Mackerras (and I forgot to mention Raymond Leppard) from the old school.  I just bought EVERY Handel's Oratorio by the King's Consort last spring and they were all excellent (thanks to the sale jobs by Elgarian and DA).

What, so this laundry list of "known" conductors is supposed to impress me? The smaller independent labels are rife with talent and just because they're out of step with your narrow viewpoint DOESN'T mean they're second stringers. 

QuoteI am not convinced Peter Neumann is better than all these conductors collectively.

Now, just how in the HELL would you know that if you've never even heard him??!? ::) ::) ::)

Besides, I never SAID Neumann was "better" than anyone else. Just that it isn't fair to discard an entire group of musicians in this repertoire just because they aren't English!!!!!

What you're positing here is akin to saying Covent Garden shouldn't bother with the likes of Boris Godunov or the Vienna State Opera should forget about staging Les Troyens because...well, I wouldn't even begin to know why!

Such a position is untenable in the extreme and you've yet to say a single thing that makes even remotely a case for your views. 

Artistry is artistry and just because there's a language barrier shouldn't be taken to mean inferiority.

QuoteMoreover, I do not see many reviews of his recordings on Amazon, which I use partially to gauge their receptions by the listening public.  The collective wisdom of listeners, I am afraid, are behind me.  BTW, I also have every Handel's opera by Alan Curtis except Ezio.  The remaining operas are spread between Gardiner, Hogwood, Malgoire and Minkowski ...

So this is what it boils down to? The "collective wisdom of Amazon"? Unbelievable. ::)

Anyway, I regret all this but sometimes upholding the honor of an entire group of musicians is worth a little hair mussing. ;D
Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

Sorin Eushayson

Where are the moderators???  This thread has gone

OFF-TOPIC

premont

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 21, 2009, 01:19:56 PM
Jos van Veldhoven, conductor of The Netherlands Bach Society, speaking about different issues of performance in Matthäus-Passion:

So back to topic.

I do not know van Veldhoven´s recordings of the SMP (or SJP), which are offered by Presto Classical this month. Can anybody comment upon them?
γνῶθι σεαυτόν

Dancing Divertimentian

Quote from: premont on November 23, 2009, 04:00:40 AM
I do not know van Veldhoven´s recordings of the SMP (or SJP), which are offered by Presto Classical this month. Can anybody comment upon them?

I've owned Veldhoven's SJP for years now and never tire of extolling its virtues on this board. His use of orchestral color is among the best of any HIPster (or anybody) and his overall approach has a freshness and zeal that is endearing. It's long remained a top choice for me in Bach (ditto his Christmas Oratorio).
Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

Marc

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 21, 2009, 01:19:56 PM
Jos van Veldhoven, conductor of The Netherlands Bach Society, speaking about different issues of performance in Matthäus-Passion:

http://www.youtube.com/v/vSWyUrKPEuI

Thanks!
Informative link.

Though in the Netherlands Van Veldhoven's choice for smaller ensembles was partly commented and reviewed as a forced one, because of decreasing government allowances.

Personally: the performers just have to convince me, either with a choir or with an OVPP-ensemble. For instance: I love Harnoncourt's SMP from 2000, which sounds more 'grand', also caused by the spatial acoustics.
BTW, I'm referring to this one:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000050KFT

Bulldog

Quote from: Coopmv on November 22, 2009, 09:51:58 AM
I am not convinced Peter Neumann is better than all these conductors collectively.  Moreover, I do not see many reviews of his recordings on Amazon, which I use partially to gauge their receptions by the listening public.  The collective wisdom of listeners, I am afraid, are behind me. 

I place much more validity in the Fanfare reviews than the comments of Amazon consumers.  Fanfare regularly praises Nuemann's Handel sets.  Still, the main point here is that you can't expect anyone to give much weight to your opinions of a recording when you haven't even heard it.

Marc

Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on November 21, 2009, 10:48:59 PM
Sorry for coming in late on this discussion. 
Please don't apologize for that. ;)
Welcome!

Quote from: Sorin Eushayson
I've listened around on this piece; Gardiner seems good, as does McCreesh.  Don't care for Harnoncourt or Herreweghe's work with Bach, they seem out of touch, but that might just be me.
Sure. And I prefer both the H's by far. It might just be me!
I must admit though that I'm intrigued by the 'out of touch' characterization.

Quote from: Sorin Eushayson
Anyhow, that's my two cents worth.  ;)
IMO, that's how it should be. ;)

Marc

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on November 23, 2009, 08:16:41 AM
I've owned Veldhoven's SJP for years now and never tire of extolling its virtues on this board. His use of orchestral color is among the best of any HIPster [....]

Agreed!
Which in fact is remarkable, because he started as a baroque 'chorus' man. But he's got fresh and appealing ideas about instrumentation.

knight66

Guys, Can we just stick with the St Matthew here. I think the Handel comments are relevent to Handel.

Thanks,

Knight
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

Marc

Quote from: knight on November 23, 2009, 10:12:47 AM
Guys, Can we just stick with the St Matthew here. I think the Handel comments are relevent to Handel.

But, but, but: we already were back on topic .... somehow. Or did I dream it?
:P

And I personally do not mind some remarks about differences between Handel and Bach .... it has been done before. :D

knight66

Oh, yes comparison is just fine, bu I think there was a bit of sidetracking about Handel performance and whether or not the only folk who can adaquately cover that ground are English...not British I note. Anyway, as you were.....in the sense of enlightening me about Bach.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

Dancing Divertimentian

Quote from: Marc on November 23, 2009, 10:04:11 AM
Agreed!
Which in fact is remarkable, because he started as a baroque 'chorus' man. But he's got fresh and appealing ideas about instrumentation.

How interesting. :) His perspective definitely produces interesting results.
Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

Dancing Divertimentian

Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

jlaurson

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on November 23, 2009, 10:25:15 AM
How interesting. :) His perspective definitely produces interesting results.

I can't speak to the Passions on record, which I'd love to have but don't, yet. His live Matthew Passion at Naarden was the finest live experience I've ever had with that work, which I love so.

http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=292, http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=232

And of course his B-minor Mass might well be my favorite recording of that.

I am heartened to see that Channel Classics has re-released the St.John and the Christmas Oratorio at a lower price.



Dancing Divertimentian

Quote from: jlaurson on November 23, 2009, 10:42:49 AM
I can't speak to the Passions on record, which I'd love to have but don't, yet. His live Matthew Passion at Naarden was the finest live experience I've ever had with that work, which I love so.

http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=292, http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=232

And of course his B-minor Mass might well be my favorite recording of that.

I am heartened to see that Channel Classics has re-released the St.John and the Christmas Oratorio at a lower price.

Thank you for those links, jl. Very fine - and entertaining - reading. :)

One of the things that endears me to Veldhoven's approach (in general) is just how 'individual' he makes the music sound. No cookie-cutter routine nor falling back on any kind of dogma - simply a thoroughly thought-out approach that smacks all the world of intimate association with the score.

Overall Veldhoven's approach is the antithesis of someone like Herreweghe, who I also rate as tops in Bach. Herreweghe opts for the more somber approach with perhaps more an emphasis on the spiritual over the flashy (not that Veldhoven's flashy). Which is why Veldhoven's approach is so endearing to me - we get the spiritual side of Bach but with more of an emphasis on color and vigor. Neither conductor lacks subtlety which is important to me and overall I'd say the two work as perfect "twin" complements in the Bach choral arena. Something I value highly.
Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

Marc

#155
Still, I would never describe Herreweghe's approach at Bach as being 'somber' (did you mean 'sober' or 'sombre' btw?), but as being 'warm and comforting'.
I don't have all Van Veldhoven's recordings, maybe because I was slightly disappointed with his 1724 SJP. Although I have to admit: this was mainly (only?) caused by his interpretation of the tenor arias, which I think he misunderstood.

About the re-issues: last week I think I saw (in a blink, really) a Christmas Oratoria of him in a 'normal' 2cd-case, but I didn't check the price. But I guess that's the one mr. Laurson is talking about. Maybe I'll check that out again; at least it sounds interesting.

Oops, getting Off-topic again.
About Van Veldhoven's SMP: saw & heard one of his Naarden performance years ago at the telly and yes, I liked it very much.
So I bought the 'other' live recording (same year, different place -> Utrecht), and never regretted that. :)

Post scriptum: Jens, you referred to Wilke te Brummelstroete as a countertenor, but AFAIK she's a woman .... or did I only wish she was? ;D

jlaurson

Quote from: Marc on November 23, 2009, 01:10:52 PM
Post scriptum: Jens, you referred to Wilke te Brummelstroete as a countertenor, but AFAIK she's a woman .... or did I only wish she was? ;D

Astonishing, what snafu-s happen along the way. Just a few days ago I spoke of Mahler Piano Rolls of the Adagietto that don't exist (to my knowledge)... and because I had not put sources into my documents, I wasn't able to find out where I got that idea from.

I don't think Brummelstroete is secretly or openly a man, but a mezzo, after all.  What a name for a singer, though! Ha!

Marc

Quote from: jlaurson on November 23, 2009, 01:32:55 PM
Astonishing, what snafu-s happen along the way. Just a few days ago I spoke of Mahler Piano Rolls of the Adagietto that don't exist (to my knowledge)... and because I had not put sources into my documents, I wasn't able to find out where I got that idea from.

I don't think Brummelstroete is secretly or openly a man, but a mezzo, after all.  What a name for a singer, though! Ha!

Yep. It might break one's tongue.
Wilke though is a very sweet maiden's name, IMHO. Sounds like Frisian origin, like a lot of names that end with -ke, although I'm not exactly sure about this specific one. Willeke is more general known in Dutchy country.

The piano rolls: Mahler 5, first movement, I guess? ;)

jlaurson

Quote from: Marc on November 23, 2009, 01:39:23 PM
Yep. It might break one's tongue.

I was more thinking of how it -- roughly translated -- means: Rumble-hooting-horn.  ;D

Dancing Divertimentian

Quote from: Marc on November 23, 2009, 01:10:52 PM
Still, I would never describe Herreweghe's approach at Bach as being 'somber' (did you mean 'sober' or 'sombre' btw?), but as being 'warm and comforting'.

Solemn if you like.

Though if somber could ever be called a spice it would apply here. Almost a way to temper the jovial by applying dark undertones with the intent to fortify. Guided by a steady hand, of course. 
Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach