Bach's St. Matthew Passion

Started by Bogey, December 10, 2007, 05:56:01 PM

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Leo K.

Finally hearing Klemperer's account of the Matthew Passion, and wow, it's a shattering experience.


Coopmv

Quote from: Leo K on March 01, 2012, 08:04:51 AM
Finally hearing Klemperer's account of the Matthew Passion, and wow, it's a shattering experience.

I only listened to my set once a few years ago.  While the performance was impressive, it was not a revelation to me.

knight66

#302
I have avoided it, not because I don't like Klemperer. I am old enough to have been brought up on such recordings and initially I found it difficult to move away from the massive sound and slow tempi. I do have both Richter sets, preferring the earlier performance, but the later soloists. But the one to a part McCreesh misses none of the drama that I used only to believe could be found in the Brucknerian approach.

However, the suggestion prompted me and I am right now listening to the EMI Klemperer set via Spotify. Newer performances dispatch the opening chorus in six or eight minutes. Whenever I hear that opening chorus I feel I am starting a journey. Occasionally it does feel like a forced march. The Klemperer is about 11 minutes long with great sustained arcs of sound. I prefer to be able to feel the dance that sits the core of so much Bach, even in this chorus. What I am listening to needs me to make some readjustments. I will get back and explain what kind of cumulative effect it has on me.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

Opus106

Quote from: knight66 on March 02, 2012, 10:57:44 PM
I prefer to be able to feel the dance that sits the core of so much Bach, even in this chorus.

That's what I like also. I once sampled the opening chorus from a Mengelberg recording (on YouTube, with a video of WW2 footage, if I remember correctly) and utterly lost track of what was happening in the music. I know the chorus describes the Crucifixion, but the performance was too dirge-like even for that!
Regards,
Navneeth

Leo K.

#304
Quote from: knight66 on March 02, 2012, 10:57:44 PM
I have avoided it, not because I don't like Klemperer. I am old enough to have been brought up on such recordings and initially I found it difficult to move away from the massive sound and slow tempi. I do have both Richter sets, preferring the earlier performance, but the later soloists. But the one to a part McCreesh misses none of the drama that I used only to believe could be found in the Brucknerian approach.

However, the suggestion prompted me and I am right now listening to the EMI Klemperer set via Spotify. Newer performances dispatch the opening chorus in six or eight minutes. Whenever I hear that opening chorus I feel I am starting a journey. Occasionally it does feel like a forced march. The Klemperer is about 11 minutes long with great sustained arcs of sound. I prefer to be able to feel the dance that sits the core of so much Bach, even in this chorus. What I am listening to needs me to make some readjustments. I will get back and explain what kind of cumulative effect it has on me.

Mike

Mike, thanks for your thoughtful post, and considering this recording with me. I look forward to your further thoughts.

I am generally more HIP oriented, and McCreesh's account of the SMP is where I usually turn when I listen to this work. I love the pacing McCreesh establishes and the way his account dances with nuance and transparency in the balance of voices and instruments.

A couple years ago I bought the BBC Legends disk with Guilini (recorded at the reverberant St.Paul's Cathedral) conducting a large account of Bach's B Minor Mass. I bought it based on the samples on Amazon, as I found myself fascinated by the large, slow sound, and the quality of meditation. I suddenly got an interest to hear more of the old school Bach, the traditional classic recordings. I then explored Furtwangler's SMP on EMI, which I also loved, but don't listen to it all that often.

I also avoided Klemperer, thinking I had enough of the old school, but my exploration of Bach's WTC from harpsichord to piano has lead me back to the old warhorse recordings of other Back masterpieces. I recently heard Klemperer's account of the B Minor Mass, and was absolutely floored. The same goes with his SMP. The overall force of sound is impressive and I found the pace moved along with intelligence and structure despite the slower tempos, and the radiance of the soloists and the nuance of the orchestra added to the experience, which envolved my mind and my emotion.

I still enjoy my HIP recordings, and I am happy to have this other performance tradition to explore now. It is very interesting and captivating.

8)




Bogey

Quote from: Leo K on March 01, 2012, 08:04:51 AM
Finally hearing Klemperer's account of the Matthew Passion, and wow, it's a shattering experience.

Interesting, Leo.  I am most curious now.  Thanks for the post and opening a door I would have never went through. :)
There will never be another era like the Golden Age of Hollywood.  We didn't know how to blow up buildings then so we had no choice but to tell great stories with great characters.-Ben Mankiewicz

Leo K.

Quote from: Bogey on March 03, 2012, 06:38:02 AM
Interesting, Leo.  I am most curious now.  Thanks for the post and opening a door I would have never went through. :)

Thanks Bogey, I hope you find some cool discoveries too  8)


knight66

Sorry to have been slow at getting back my listening was interrupted...by life and a concert of Tristan.

I got a lot out of the Klemperer, though I did initially wonder at the plod through that first chorus. But, as in his Mozart, the slow overall timings do not mean he does not spring the rhythms. I quite quickly adjusted to the pace and to the massive sound, the rather Romantic approach. But with such great musical minds, even if the practice moves on: there remains validity in the way they communicate or release the meaning of the work. Klemperer manages that balance between drama and the religious aspects of the piece and the more symphonic thinking through provides groups of numbers that are made to act like theme and variations of larger movements that take you on that journey that I mentioned  in a  contemplative way.

It was powerful and moving: though I did find some of the chorales a trial. I recall rehearsing them at that speed in order to get the blend and phrasing right.

Another older performance I enjoy is the first Karajan B Minor Mass (EMI). It is speedy for its time and well sung. There is a freshness about the performance. Later he produced it for DG and as with his later St M Passion, he had slowed down a deal and was lingering over the beauty: something I did not feel that Klemperer was doing. His slowness was about altogether other things than indulgence of the senses. He produced an intellectual rigor in his music making, I did not by any means grasp what it was all about; but I often feel I can sense it.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

Leo K.

#308
Quote from: knight66 on March 04, 2012, 10:32:08 AM
Sorry to have been slow at getting back my listening was interrupted...by life and a concert of Tristan.

I got a lot out of the Klemperer, though I did initially wonder at the plod through that first chorus. But, as in his Mozart, the slow overall timings do not mean he does not spring the rhythms. I quite quickly adjusted to the pace and to the massive sound, the rather Romantic approach. But with such great musical minds, even if the practice moves on: there remains validity in the way they communicate or release the meaning of the work. Klemperer manages that balance between drama and the religious aspects of the piece and the more symphonic thinking through provides groups of numbers that are made to act like theme and variations of larger movements that take you on that journey that I mentioned  in a  contemplative way.

It was powerful and moving: though I did find some of the chorales a trial. I recall rehearsing them at that speed in order to get the blend and phrasing right.

Another older performance I enjoy is the first Karajan B Minor Mass (EMI). It is speedy for its time and well sung. There is a freshness about the performance. Later he produced it for DG and as with his later St M Passion, he had slowed down a deal and was lingering over the beauty: something I did not feel that Klemperer was doing. His slowness was about altogether other things than indulgence of the senses. He produced an intellectual rigor in his music making, I did not by any means grasp what it was all about; but I often feel I can sense it.

Mike

Thank Mike for your review! Your experience was very similiar to mine upon first listening to Klemperer's Bach SMP and B Minor Mass. I did relish the slow chorales though  ;D

I appreciate your description of your experience:

QuoteKlemperer manages that balance between drama and the religious aspects of the piece and the more symphonic thinking through provides groups of numbers that are made to act like theme and variations of larger movements that take you on that journey that I mentioned  in a  contemplative way.

I thought Klemp's SMP would be a slow trial, but instead found myself gliding along without getting anxious, becoming reflective and enjoying the details in the nuances of voices and instruments. the religious feeling is deep and profound in tone and I was involved in the experience.

I'm now interested in hearing the Karajan Bach B Minor you mentioned!



knight66

I always overdose on the St Matthew at this time of year. Richter 1 coming up this week I feel.

When I was in the intervals of the Tristan und Isolde yesterday, I was reflecting on how Furtwangler produced the atmosphere that he did when the love potion was being consumed. Time stood still and it was somehow transmuted into a communion. Superb as the conductor was yesterday, that is an area he has not quite cracked: or perhaps sees differently.

Back to some old Toscanini and Furtwangler discs; plenty of material lined up.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

Mandryka

Quote from: Marc on June 08, 2011, 11:50:17 AM
Despite going from Ascension Day to Whitsun, I listened to fragments of BWV 244, 2nd recording by Harnoncourt, live in Concertgebouw Amsterdam 1985.

Such a pity he withdrew this issue!



The opening choir, sung by an amateur choir (which fell apart after only a few years of existence), is much better taken than in his 3rd one, in which it is performed disappointingly shallow.

The voices of f.i. Kurt Equiluz and Arleen Augér .... such great Bach interpreters IMHO. At a certain point in Aus Liebe will mein Heiland sterben Augér's voice literally breaks, probably to her own embarrassment, but it brings an extra tad of emotion.
Also nice to listen to a young Jaap van Zweden (now conductor in Dallas) playing a sensitive obbligato violin part in Erbarme dich, mein Gott. Well, maybe Jadwiga Rappé isn't really a Bach mezzo (too much vibrato) and the same goes for Robert Holl, who's more a Wagner bass-bariton, and I've never really liked Anton Scharinger's voice, but still: the intensity of the entire performance is great. Sometimes even 'too great', which leads to a crazy tempo in Sehet Jesus hat die Hand, with Rappé sounding kinda like Al Jarreau. ;D

Bach/Harnoncourt fans who are able to get it somewhere sometime somehow: grab it!

It's strange that this has become impossible to get. Why did he withdraw it.

When I read your post I thought I would buy it as  an Easter treat to myself, but impossible to find.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Marc

Quote from: Mandryka on March 18, 2012, 02:05:37 PM
It's strange that this has become impossible to get. Why did he withdraw it.

When I read your post I thought I would buy it as  an Easter treat to myself, but impossible to find.

The official reason is that he withdrew it because the benefits of this recording were only meant to support the restoration of the Concertgebouw during the mid-eighties. After the building was restored, Harnoncourt saw no reason to keep this issue in the catalogue any longer. But, as I once understood in an interview, he had to struggle with Teldec to achieve that.

Non-officially, I personally think that Harnoncourt already planned to make another studio recording because his own vision on this work had changed and he also realized that his first studio recording had become kinda 'antique' (though still very worthwhile IMO). And many of his more recent insights were already incorporated in the not-so-perfect live Concertgebouw recording. So maybe he didn't want to 'compete' with himself on the cd-market.

Marc


Leo K.



I got ahold of Jochum's (out of print) account with the Royal Concertgebouw on the Phillips label.

IN hearing it last night and this morning, I'm not sure what to say about it, but I'm enjoying it immensely, it sounds meditative and luminous, with clarity in the voices.

8)

Coopmv

Quote from: Leo K on August 19, 2012, 06:54:45 AM


I got ahold of Jochum's (out of print) account with the Royal Concertgebouw on the Phillips label.

IN hearing it last night and this morning, I'm not sure what to say about it, but I'm enjoying it immensely, it sounds meditative and luminous, with clarity in the voices.

8)

Philips always delivered excellent SQ even for some of the older recordings ...    ;)

Wakefield

Quote from: Marc on May 11, 2012, 10:38:26 PM
Interesting, despite the returning disturbing ads :

http://www.youtube.com/v/MqL7uFfcIoM

Oh, man, how powerful this music is. Even when the words are translated to a completely alien language, all its power is there, intact.

I won't mention the tears this time because we have had some disagreement about this issue.  ;)

Thanks for posting!
"One of the greatest misfortunes of honest people is that they are cowards. They complain, keep quiet, dine and forget."
-- Voltaire

Lilas Pastia

#316
From the mammoth 107-disc box of tutto Furtwängler, 3 discs are devoted to his heavily cut SMP. Furtwängler often conducted the Passion, but never in its entirety. He is on record as saying that an uncut performance would try the patience of the modern listener... ::)

Be that as it may, conduct it he did, and there are 3-4 performances of it on disc, the most famous and widely available being that from this set, originally an EMI release. Emanating from Viennese performances that took place in April 1954, it is quite probably one of the very last concerts given by Furtwängler before his death. It's not a studio recording, and the sound calls for much tolerance. Very little of the choirs' words can be heard, and the orchestra (Wiener Philharmoniker) is not flattered either.

What made me sit still and pay attention throughout was the unusial, almost schizophrenic mélange of extraordinary spirituality carried by the conductor, and the intensely dramatic, theatrical recreation of the drama by the soloists. It helps that the solo voices are very well and clearly caught, and are of uniformly splendid quality.

The drama is enacted with the utmost passion (no pun intended) by tenor Anton Dermota. A great favourite of  the Wiener Staatsoper in mozartian roles, his singing is a heady mix of tonal plangency and verbal intensity. Every single word is clearly heard, and the many recitatives that are the cement of this work acquire unusual prominence. Indeed, Dermota's contribution is the hallmark of this performance. I know of no other Evangelist that brings such hair-raising dramatic intensity to this role.

The other parts are taken by the dream cast of Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau, Elisabeth Grümmer, Marga Höffgen and Otto Edelmann. The young DFD sings a noble, very healthy Jesus. He never sounds like he's in any kind of dire straits or about to face the Great Beyond. But what a voice! Bass Edelmann sings the bass arias (only one is heard here), and brings a frightening intensity to the parts of Pilatus, Peter, Judas. Sometimes it sounds like Klingsor has strayed onto the stage of the Passion. The women bring beautiful voices to the arias, but Grümmer's singing style is hopelessly passé with its intense vibrato that robs the tones of the necessary purity.

I sincerely did not expect to like the results, but the sheer intensity and extraordinary devotional character of the performance swayed my many reservations. I wish Furt would have reconsidered his jettisoning of so many numbers!

Bogey

Quote from: André on October 22, 2012, 07:13:48 AM
From the mammoth 107-disc box of tutto Furtwängler, 3 discs are devoted to his heavily cut SMP. Furtwängler often conducted the Passion, but never in its entirety. He is on record as saying that an uncut performance would try the patience of the modern listener... ::)



Furtwängler's press agent:

There will never be another era like the Golden Age of Hollywood.  We didn't know how to blow up buildings then so we had no choice but to tell great stories with great characters.-Ben Mankiewicz

Bogey

Quote from: André on October 22, 2012, 07:13:48 AM


I sincerely did not expect to like the results, but the sheer intensity and extraordinary devotional character of the performance swayed my many reservations. I wish Furt would have reconsidered his jettisoning of so many numbers!

Any of this available outside of the Furt brick?
There will never be another era like the Golden Age of Hollywood.  We didn't know how to blow up buildings then so we had no choice but to tell great stories with great characters.-Ben Mankiewicz

Mandryka

#319
Quote from: André on October 22, 2012, 07:13:48 AM
From the mammoth 107-disc box of tutto Furtwängler, 3 discs are devoted to his heavily cut SMP. Furtwängler often conducted the Passion, but never in its entirety. He is on record as saying that an uncut performance would try the patience of the modern listener... ::)

Be that as it may, conduct it he did, and there are 3-4 performances of it on disc, the most famous and widely available being that from this set, originally an EMI release. Emanating from Viennese performances that took place in April 1954, it is quite probably one of the very last concerts given by Furtwängler before his death. It's not a studio recording, and the sound calls for much tolerance. Very little of the choirs' words can be heard, and the orchestra (Wiener Philharmoniker) is not flattered either.

What made me sit still and pay attention throughout was the unusial, almost schizophrenic mélange of extraordinary spirituality carried by the conductor, and the intensely dramatic, theatrical recreation of the drama by the soloists. It helps that the solo voices are very well and clearly caught, and are of uniformly splendid quality.

The drama is enacted with the utmost passion (no pun intended) by tenor Anton Dermota. A great favourite of  the Wiener Staatsoper in mozartian roles, his singing is a heady mix of tonal plangency and verbal intensity. Every single word is clearly heard, and the many recitatives that are the cement of this work acquire unusual prominence. Indeed, Dermota's contribution is the hallmark of this performance. I know of no other Evangelist that brings such hair-raising dramatic intensity to this role.

The other parts are taken by the dream cast of Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau, Elisabeth Grümmer, Marga Höffgen and Otto Edelmann. The young DFD sings a noble, very healthy Jesus. He never sounds like he's in any kind of dire straits or about to face the Great Beyond. But what a voice! Bass Edelmann sings the bass arias (only one is heard here), and brings a frightening intensity to the parts of Pilatus, Peter, Judas. Sometimes it sounds like Klingsor has strayed onto the stage of the Passion. The women bring beautiful voices to the arias, but Grümmer's singing style is hopelessly passé with its intense vibrato that robs the tones of the necessary purity.

I sincerely did not expect to like the results, but the sheer intensity and extraordinary devotional character of the performance swayed my many reservations. I wish Furt would have reconsidered his jettisoning of so many numbers!

The end of that is very nice, from Am Abend Da Es Kühle War to the end of the whole passion. Furtwangler himself may have seen that he's pulled off  something worthwhile there since he asked for it to be played at his funeral.

What are the other 2-3 performances that you mention like, sound wise? And what are they? Apart from the one with Dermota I only know the one from Buenos Aires with Patzak.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen