The Worst First!

[karlhenning]

Speaking of conductor/composers: has anyone experienced Leonard Bernstein's First Symphony? 

No;  we listened to bits of The Age of Anxiety (no. 2) in a class once . . . .

[greg]

No;  we listened to bits of The Age of Anxiety (no. 2) in a class once . . . .

i heard that one a long time ago, it's actually a pretty good symphony

[71 dB]

I never intented to turn this thread into an Elgar thread. I came here almost accidentally and saw two persons claiming Elgar's first is the worst. Of course I defend Elgar against such claims. (Thanks Sarge for support!). I'm also sorry people think what I say is stupid. I don't feel that way myself.

Scriabin's first was mentioned. Well, I have all of his 3 symphonies and I agree #1 & #2 are weaker than #3 which I like.

@ Anacho:
Elgar's 2nd is more difficult and sophisticated than the first.

@ G...R...E...G...:
I'm glad you were impressed with Elgar's first symphony. It's true the finale isn't the strongest Elgar but still very good in my opinion. The 2nd symphony has a fantastic finale. Keep listening! I'm sure Elgar will grow on you. 

[greg]

Scriabin's first was mentioned. Well, I have all of his 3 symphonies and I agree #1 & #2 are weaker than #3 which I like.

wait, he wrote 5....... but sometimes they aren't called symphonies. 

[71 dB]

wait, he wrote 5....... but sometimes they aren't called symphonies. 

Well, I have the 3 which ARE called symphonies... 

[karlhenning]

I never intented to turn this thread into an Elgar thread. I came here almost accidentally and saw two persons claiming Elgar's first is the worst. Of course I defend Elgar against such claims.

It is an entirely valid point of view, to consider Elgar's First the weakest of the lot.  Period.

[springrite]

I try to ignore these posters:
- karlhenning
- D Minor
- Bonehelm

Gotta try harder...

[JoshLilly]

Of course I defend Elgar against such claims.

How can you defend against people's personal likes and dislikes? Just saying.
Anyway, suggestion: convince more people to listen to Fürtwangler's first, and I'm sure at least a couple of those naming Elgar's first as the worst would change their minds.
In other words, instead of a negative campaign ("Stop picking Elgar #1"), instead embark on a positive campaign: "Fürtwangler's #1 sucks more!"     

In any case, Fürtwangler's #1 is probably not the absolute worst first symphony, in my opinion. It's just the one I think is the worst I've heard by composers whose name would probably be universally recognised here. And I'd like to point out further, some people actually like it. I don't know anyone in love with it, but probably someone out there thinks it's terrific. People heavy into Bruckner seem to find it at least moderately appealing, if a bit lengthy.

[greg]

It is an entirely valid point of view, to consider Elgar's First the weakest of the lot.  Period.

i think it depends more on what you've heard before...... if all you've heard are the symphonies of Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Mahler, Brahms, etc., then yeah, by far it's going to be the worst.

but, if you get into more obscure composers, i'm sure there's worse out there....

[karlhenning]

i think it depends more on what you've heard before...... if all you've heard are the symphonies of Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Mahler, Brahms, etc., then yeah, by far it's going to be the worst.

And (to say again) there is much I like in the Elgar First;  but (and of course, my hearing of the piece may change at some point) it does not seem to me entirely successful as a symphony;  and I find it markedly less imaginative (and more hidebound) than (for instance) his concerti, or Falstaff.

I suppose I can find worse first symphonies than Elgar's.  But, why should I look for them, eh? 

[71 dB]

i think it depends more on what you've heard before...... if all you've heard are the symphonies of Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Mahler, Brahms, etc., then yeah, by far it's going to be the worst.

I haven't heard Prokofiev's symphonies yet but what I have heard from Shostakovich, Mahler and Brahms are inferior to Elgar in my opinion. That's my point. Elgar is not the worst or second worst. He's the best!

Elgar was able to write music that means the most for me. It is fair in my opinion for me to say he is the best. Mahler being the best does not make sense for me because I find the music inferior.

[greg]

I suppose I can find worse first symphonies than Elgar's.  But, why should I look for them, eh? 

good point 

[Mark G. Simon]

Speaking of conductor/composers: has anyone experienced Leonard Bernstein's First Symphony? 

I heard it at Tanglewood under the direction of Bernstein himself. It was the only live performance with Bernstein that I ever attended. The Jeremiah Symphony impressed me quite favorably.

[Cato]

Thanks for the Bernstein comments!

As for Leif Segerstam, according to Wikipedia, his symphonies now number 189!   

I remember sitting through a CD some years ago with one of his symphonies in the teens, 16 or 17, called "Thoughts at the Edge," and thinking it much ado about nothing, and also thinking that it had a certain amount of premeditated chaff which one could recycle.

[karlhenning]

I heard it at Tanglewood under the direction of Bernstein himself. It was the only live performance with Bernstein that I ever attended. The Jeremiah Symphony impressed me quite favorably.

I never thought he was a bullfrog :-)

[Peregrine]

Only in your shallow mind. It should be the most basic thing to keep in mind that these foolish people who are fixated on certain composers are separate entities from the composers themselves. 71 dB is not Elgar. Pink Harp is not Debussy. Let them say what they will, ignore them and their comments will not derail threads.

But you're not going to do any such thing, are you? Because deep down you enjoy bullying people like 71 dB. You enjoy pursuing them like a pack of wild dogs after an errant sheep. This abhorrent behavior is your own responsibility.

The best post thus far on this nonsense, you articulate my feelings entirely and save me the bother!

[jochanaan]

I haven't heard Prokofiev's symphonies yet but what I have heard from Shostakovich, Mahler and Brahms are inferior to Elgar in my opinion. That's my point. Elgar is not the worst or second worst. He's the best!

Elgar was able to write music that means the most for me. It is fair in my opinion for me to say he is the best. Mahler being the best does not make sense for me because I find the music inferior.

A friendly suggestion to help you in your quest to raise Elgar's esteem: When stating an opinion, be careful not to let it turn into dogma.  Opinions are fine.  But I cannot subscribe to dogmatic statements like the one of yours I've put in boldface.

You will find it much harder to convince people that Elgar is "the best" than that he's a worthy composer.  Because, after all, better minds than mine or even yours have failed to define "the best." Yet Elgar's worthiness, based on such works as the Enigma Variations and the Cello Concerto, appears to be beyond question among music lovers with broad experience.

Now, let's get back to discussing inferior First (including only) Symphonies.

P.S.  By some reckonings, Scriabin's Poem of Ecstasy and Prometheus are called Symphonies #4 and #5.

P.P.S.  Did Berlioz write a symphony before the Fantastique?

[Wendell_E]

Speaking of conductor/composers: has anyone experienced Leonard Bernstein's First Symphony? 

I've got his DG recording of it, with the second.  I sorta like it, especially the second movement ("Profanation"), but then I'm generally all in favor of profanation, in any case.   

[Nunc Dimittis]

Of course there were some composers, such as Mennin and Pettersson, who were sagacious enough to avoid being ridiculed in this thread.  They withdrew their first symphonies.

[springrite]

Thanks for the Bernstein comments!

As for Leif Segerstam, according to Wikipedia, his symphonies now number 189!   

I remember sitting through a CD some years ago with one of his symphonies in the teens, 16 or 17, called "Thoughts at the Edge," and thinking it much ado about nothing, and also thinking that it had a certain amount of premeditated chaff which one could recycle.

I have one of his symphonies and several of his "Monumental Thoughts". To be honest, not only were the "thoughts" not monumental, they all sounds like they were composed in 10 minutes or so, probably as fast as a copist couple put the notes on paper.