The Worst First!

Started by Cato, December 11, 2007, 11:29:07 AM

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Karl Henning

Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Brian

Quote from: DavidW on April 10, 2021, 06:53:50 AM
This hot take is hilariously pretentious!  I obviously disagree, it is a masterpiece.  But not only that but your narrative description is just bizarre.  It is the kind of criticism I would have expected from a Wagnerian at the time. ;D
What can I say, I'm a pretentious guy  ;D ;D

Florestan

Let that one of you who wrote a symphony cast the first stone!  ;D
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Karl Henning

Quote from: DavidW on April 10, 2021, 06:53:50 AM
This hot take is hilariously pretentious!  I obviously disagree, it is a masterpiece.  But not only that but your narrative description is just bizarre.  It is the kind of criticism I would have expected from a Wagnerian at the time. ;D

Brian's having mixed feelings is one thing, and not to be disputed. Going from there to dubbing the symphony problematic is undue haste.  Heck, I would have dismissed all the Mahler symphonies when I was his age ... though, like the peasant who was turned into a newt, I got better.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Karl Henning

Quote from: Florestan on April 10, 2021, 08:59:19 AM
Let that one of you who wrote a symphony cast the first stone!  ;D

If I were more ambitious, I might check to see if I posted to this thread earlier.  My read on the question isn't that any First Symphony which is known to us is likely to be genuinely bad, but an exercise in sifting out the minimis inter pares.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Florestan

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 10, 2021, 09:44:43 AM
minimis inter pares.

Good point but then again, which is it? Go on, call a spade a spade!  ;D





Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Cato

"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Cato

Perhaps mentioned earlier: a symphony by a teenager, perhaps not on the level of Bizet's felicitous creation, or of Mendelssohn's quasi-homage to Mozart...


Is it a "worst First" when it is the only symphony composed by the man?  The comments are interesting.


https://www.youtube.com/v/d0d-yI3fMVc


"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Florestan

Quote from: Cato on April 10, 2021, 10:34:46 AM
Perhaps mentioned earlier: a symphony by a teenager, perhaps not on the level of Bizet's felicitous creation, or of Mendelssohn's quasi-homage to Mozart...


Is it a "worst First" when it is the only symphony composed by the man?  The comments are interesting.


https://www.youtube.com/v/d0d-yI3fMVc

That's not fair...  not fair at all...
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Cato

"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Karl Henning

Quote from: Florestan on April 10, 2021, 09:52:01 AM
Good point but then again, which is it? Go on, call a spade a spade!  ;D






Let me see if I have posted an opinion earlier, either to affirm or emend.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

DavidW

lol I didn't even know that Wagner wrote a symphony!

Cato

Quote from: DavidW on April 11, 2021, 07:31:59 AM
lol I didn't even know that Wagner wrote a symphony!

It is an interesting artifact at the least!
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Mirror Image

Quote from: Brian on April 09, 2021, 01:34:50 PM
Nielsen has a good case for worst last and best first. (Though my own personal "Best First" rankings would probably go Berlioz, Walton, Prokofiev, Schumann, Nielsen.)

This is going to be a super unpopular opinion but...I do think Brahms' First is at best "problematic." All that drama in the first movement, and then the movement ends happily and resolves itself into peace, followed by 15 minutes of peaceful calm and cheer, followed by a heroic finale completely out of proportion to the bucolic simplicity of the previous two movements. Of course, Mahler did the same thing in some of his symphonies, having super dramatic beginnings and endings with a whole lot of cheery pastoral fluff in between. It leaves me......well, not cold, I like all those pieces, but it does leave me with mixed feelings.

Super unpopular, indeed, although I'm not much of a Brahmsian (unless Schoenberg gets ahold of him ;)) and Mahler's 1st is a good symphony, but I wouldn't claim it to be one of his best. We're definitely in disagreement about Nielsen's 6th. I think its one of his best works and I love the fact that it is so unconventional and, most of all, quirky. But I seldom listen to any symphony aside from Mahler's and Bruckner's these days. If I do listen to a symphony outside of these two composers, it's usually some of the more compact ones like those last two from Roussel or Szymanowski's 3rd and 4th. Of course, I have plenty of time for the chamber symphonies of composers as well, especially Schoenberg, Enescu and Milhaud.

Karl Henning

Quote from: Cato on April 10, 2021, 10:34:46 AM
Perhaps mentioned earlier: a symphony by a teenager, perhaps not on the level of Bizet's felicitous creation, or of Mendelssohn's quasi-homage to Mozart...


Is it a "worst First" when it is the only symphony composed by the man?  The comments are interesting.


https://www.youtube.com/v/d0d-yI3fMVc




A first is a first, even if there is no second, right? (e.g. the fallacy of claiming that Mary had children after Jesus because he is described as her "firstborn")
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Cato

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 11, 2021, 07:58:58 AM

A first is a first, even if there is no second, right? (e.g. the fallacy of claiming that Mary had children after Jesus because he is described as her "firstborn")


Amen to both of those, Karl!  0:)


Here is a thought: find a composer who is not very good, and you might find a "worst First" symphony!

Any candidates?  My first thought - or deaf spot - would be Ferde Grofe, but I do not believe he composed a symphony.  (Many years ago I confessed to a great dislike of his music: it usually makes me laugh out loud because of its corny nature.) 

Anyway...there might be no such thing as a "worst First,'' as Karl mentioned, only a "symphonia minima inter pares."
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Mirror Image

Unpopular opinion time: I'm definitely not fond of Rachmaninov's 1st. In fact, I don't think it should've been rescued at all. >:D May the firing squads commence. ;D

Florestan

Quote from: Mirror Image on April 13, 2021, 07:50:04 PM
Unpopular opinion time: I'm definitely not fond of Rachmaninov's 1st. In fact, I don't think it should've been rescued at all. >:D May the firing squads commence. ;D

I was with you until recently, having heard only Previn/LSO which is an unqualfiied dud. Then I heard Nezet-Seguin/The Philadelphians and changed my mind.
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

DavidW

Quote from: Florestan on April 14, 2021, 12:39:13 AM
Then I heard Nezet-Seguin/The Philadelphians and changed my mind.

I listened to them in the piano concertos and they were really good (and the piano playing was also excellent).  Now I'm thinking from what you said I should track down their performances of the symphonies.

Karl Henning

Quote from: Florestan on April 14, 2021, 12:39:13 AM
I was with you until recently, having heard only Previn/LSO which is an unqualfiied dud. Then I heard Nezet-Seguin/The Philadelphians and changed my mind.

Interesting. Previn so often did so well.  Well, we all take the odd misstep.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot