Rimsky-Korsakov recommendations?

[The new erato]

There a new complete (3CD) set of Kitezh on Naxos on its way into the shops. I wonder how that does. Wonderful work, and though I love Gergiev's version, it's far from perfect.

[val]

The new erato
There a new complete (3CD) set of Kitezh on Naxos on its way into the shops. I wonder how that does. Wonderful work, and though I love Gergiev's version, it's far from perfect.

I don't know the Naxos version, but I love the old version conducted by Nebolssin (1956) with the wonderful Natalya Rozhdestvenskaia as Fevronia and other great voices of the Bolshoi (Petrov, Ivanovski and Tarkhov as Gritshka).

Nebolssin also conducted (and very well) a splendid version of Tsar Saltan with the great Ivan Petrov, Verbitskaia and Rechetine (1955) 

Not forgetting also the best Sadko I ever heard, conducted by Golovanov, with the extraordinary tenor Nelepp and other legendary voices such as Reizen, Lisitsian and Koslovsky.

[Elgarian]

I listened to Ormandy's Scheherazade this morning, so thought I'd jot down a few thoughts. These aren't carved in stone. It's quite possible that a second hearing would cause me to change my mind.

If I try to think of words to describe the performance, I'd be thinking of  things like 'stately', 'beautiful', 'smooth', 'grand'. The third movement is lovely, but lovely in a silky and serene sort of way, rather than the bitter-sweet poignant sort of way that I tend to prefer. Not saying this isn't a valid way to go - I'm not saying what I think is best; just trying to express impressions and differences as I hear them.

Thinking next of the great climaxes - at the end of the second movement for instance, or the finale - the words I'd use are 'sweeping', 'majestic', 'epic'. This is a kind of Cinemascope Scheherazade, very enjoyable in its own terms, and if it were the only version a person had, I guess he could be happy with it. But I think he'd miss some important things: at no stage do I ever get a real sense of excitement as I do with, for example, Beecham. On board ship, with the storm raging, I get a sense of impressive 'special effects' rather than real danger. I feel there's a certain lack of forward momentum. And Scheherazade is a lovely creature but her voice doesn't quite manage to seduce me.

So Ormandy provided me with a very enjoyable 45 minutes this morning, and showed me an approach rather different to those I already know, but at the moment I don't think it's the approach I'd ever become most fond of.

[Elgarian]

The Scheherazade odyssey continues with Svetlanov and his band of Russians (of course there's a lot more than Scheherazade in this 5 CD box).

I expected scrunchy and blaring Russian brass - and I did get some of that, though perhaps not as prominently as I'd anticipated. But what really struck me was that this is a wild ride. I don't know how accurate an interpretation it is, but I get the feeling that Svetlanov was determined not to let any part of the piece seem dull or laboured. The result seems a bit rough in places, but rough in all the best ways, and I must say I love it. There's lots of excitement and wiry fiddling, and he makes the music seem more Arabian than usual. (Or do I mean Russian, really? Maybe I can't tell the difference between these differently nuanced shades of exotica.)

If I had to have only one Scheherazade, it wouldn't be this one. It seems just a bit too idiosyncratic for that. But I shall want to revisit it, often.

[Coopmv]

The Scheherazade odyssey continues with Svetlanov and his band of Russians (of course there's a lot more than Scheherazade in this 5 CD box).

I expected scrunchy and blaring Russian brass - and I did get some of that, though perhaps not as prominently as I'd anticipated. But what really struck me was that this is a wild ride. I don't know how accurate an interpretation it is, but I get the feeling that Svetlanov was determined not to let any part of the piece seem dull or laboured. The result seems a bit rough in places, but rough in all the best ways, and I must say I love it. There's lots of excitement and wiry fiddling, and he makes the music seem more Arabian than usual. (Or do I mean Russian, really? Maybe I can't tell the difference between these differently nuanced shades of exotica.)

If I had to have only one Scheherazade, it wouldn't be this one. It seems just a bit too idiosyncratic for that. But I shall want to revisit it, often.

I need to add this box to my collection ...

[DieNacht]

Recently got the Svetlanov "Scheherazade" LP & am looking forward to hearing it ...

Another charming and relatively overlooked, yet quite substantial work, is the "Concert Fantasy" op.33 (1886) for violin and orchestra, lasting 16 mins. It has been recorded by Issakadze (melodiya & licensed on other labels) and Rosand (vox-turnabout), among others. It doesn´t reach the level of say, Scheherazade, in creativity, though.

[Elgarian]

Recently got the Svetlanov "Scheherazade" LP & am looking forward to hearing it ...

Another charming and relatively overlooked, yet quite substantial work, is the "Concert Fantasy" op.33 (1886) for violin and orchestra, lasting 16 mins. It has been recorded by Issakadze (melodiya & licensed on other labels) and Rosand (vox-turnabout), among others. It doesn´t reach th elevel of say, Scheherazade, in creativity, though.

I wasn't aware of the 'Concert Fantasy' so thanks for the tip-off. I'll look out for it.

When you've listened to your Svetlanov Scheherazade, do please come back here and tell us your impressions of it.

[Odnoposoff]

About the Fantasy, there's a Milstein's recording, but it wasn't the original NRK but a Kreisler arrangement (that damn Austrian guy had nothing better to do that to made arrangements and transcriptions?)
About Sheherazade,there's an very old recording by Nikolai Golovanoff with the Bolshoi Orq. The orch.was a third class one, the sound is bad, but the violin solos were made by King David, and I've never heard something so beautiful.

[Elgarian]

Alright. Stokowski's 1975 recording of Scheherazade with the RPO. I prepared myself for fireworks, switched on, and sat down.

Well, this has me beat.  It's full of little idiosyncrasies that would be acceptable if they achieved something, but ... what, exactly? In the third movement, for example, he goes for extreme variations of loudness between alternating phrases for no sensible reason that I can discern. If it's an attempt to suggest delicate nuances of feeling, it doesn't work for me. It seems more like the blunderbuss approach to delicacy of expression. There are weird breaks of rhythm that make the music seem choppy rather than lyrical. And worst of all, through the whole 4 movements I never came close to a sense of excitement.

Now, what shocks me is what the Gramophone reviewer said back in 1977:

"a vital, electrifying and colourful reading"; "the thrust of the music is irresistible, and in a work which can very easily seem fragmented, the Stokowskian concentration and persuasiveness will be hard for anyone to resist"; "delighted by the vividness and sense of reality".

I can hardly believe we're contemplating the same recording, but there's no mistake. We are. So maybe someone out there will find this the bees' knees. Alas, I'm one of those who is not delighted by it. I think it's niggly, overcooked, sometimes disruptively arrhythmic, but mostly just plain dull (I picked up a book and read while the last movement was playing). To make Scheherazade seem dull is quite a spectacular achievement, I'd say.

[Drasko]

Alright. Stokowski's 1975 recording of Scheherazade with the RPO.

Alas, I'm one of those who is not delighted by it. I think it's niggly, overcooked, sometimes disruptively arrhythmic, but mostly just plain dull ...

Me too.

[Elgarian]

One of the aspects of Rimsky Korsakov's work that I've never been involved with is his operas. I've had my eye on the Gergiev box for a while, thinking 'Ooh, there's all that to explore sometime'. But then in Bath Compact Discs a couple of weeks ago I found this recording of Mlada, and took the plunge. I listened to the first disc today.

Well, I am really flummoxed. I can't hear any tunes. Oh, there are some tuneful choral bits, and orchestral bits (particularly the famous passage in Act 2 Scene 3), but it's as if all tunefulness has been forbidden as long as only one person is singing. Now this is Rimsky Korsakov, the great tunesmith. So I can't understand this. Why does it sound so much like Klingon opera?

I could understand it if I were an opera newbie, but my shelves are laden with opera recordings, and I've listened my way through the whole Ring cycle more times than I can remember. Why is Rimsky Korsakov beyond me? Worst of it is, there are two more discs full of this stuff in this package - I can't imagine being able to face listening to those. And it looks now as though buying the Gergiev box would be downright foolish. Unless, unless, Mlada just happens to be a particularly difficult opera to tackle? Does anyone have consoling words to offer?

[Brian]

The Scheherazade odyssey continues with Svetlanov and his band of Russians (of course there's a lot more than Scheherazade in this 5 CD box).

Wow, that sounds like the exact opposite of Svetlanov's interpretation on BBC Legends with the LSO. The BBC Svetlanov is more akin to - well, it's almost Celibidachian in its slowness, titanic weight, and sensuality. It weighs in at 50 minutes and feels like a Major Event.

[mc ukrneal]

One of the aspects of Rimsky Korsakov's work that I've never been involved with is his operas. I've had my eye on the Gergiev box for a while, thinking 'Ooh, there's all that to explore sometime'. But then in Bath Compact Discs a couple of weeks ago I found this recording of Mlada, and took the plunge. I listened to the first disc today.

Well, I am really flummoxed. I can't hear any tunes. Oh, there are some tuneful choral bits, and orchestral bits (particularly the famous passage in Act 2 Scene 3), but it's as if all tunefulness has been forbidden as long as only one person is singing. Now this is Rimsky Korsakov, the great tunesmith. So I can't understand this. Why does it sound so much like Klingon opera?

I could understand it if I were an opera newbie, but my shelves are laden with opera recordings, and I've listened my way through the whole Ring cycle more times than I can remember. Why is Rimsky Korsakov beyond me? Worst of it is, there are two more discs full of this stuff in this package - I can't imagine being able to face listening to those. And it looks now as though buying the Gergiev box would be downright foolish. Unless, unless, Mlada just happens to be a particularly difficult opera to tackle? Does anyone have consoling words to offer?

Hmm. I have this in my cart at mdt as they have a sale. So I cannot comment on this release in particular. But I have some comments that may help. His operas are not wall to wall tunes. I think an opera like Sadko is closer to what you are looking for. It has a number of luxurious tunes - very much what I think you would expect. But even here, it is a bit episodic, and his operas can sometimes lack drama. He also had a different approach for human characters and fantasy characters, which helps emphasize this, where the sound of the music is different for the different characters.  On top of that, Mlada is less well know for tunes (with the exception of one, though perhaps I am being too harsh).

I think you need to listen to again, but need to approach it not expecting his orchestral works. This may disappoint you if you want more of the same, but there are some riches here nonethless. It may be that an opera suites disc will be more to your liking.

[Elgarian]

Wow, that sounds like the exact opposite of Svetlanov's interpretation on BBC Legends with the LSO. The BBC Svetlanov is more akin to - well, it's almost Celibidachian in its slowness, titanic weight, and sensuality. It weighs in at 50 minutes and feels like a Major Event.

Interesting! And thanks for this Brian. I already have my eye on that Prom recording. It's next on my list when I have money again.

[Lethevich]

I second ukrneal - I would go to Sadko, Tsar Saltan, Kitezh, The Golden Cockerel, maybe even The Snow Maiden before Mlada, which I think is an early work. I have yet to be really blown away by a Rimsky opera, but while less overtly melodic than Tchaikovsky's I find them to be just as good.

[Elgarian]

I think you need to listen to again, but need to approach it not expecting his orchestral works. This may disappoint you if you want more of the same, but there are some riches here nonethless. It may be that an opera suites disc will be more to your liking.

Not too sure about the 'listening again' suggestion - well, not for a while, anyway. (You should have seen the grimaces on my wife's face while the CD was playing).

I have most of the well-known orchestral suites already, and of course based my expectations on their tunefulness - which I think is partly why I've come so unexpectedly unstuck.

[Elgarian]

After reading Brian's observation about the duration of the Svetlanov/LSO performance, I put my anorak on and burrowed, nerdlike, into my pile of Scheherazade CDs to put together this list of timings:

Batiz (Philharmonia) 41:33
Ansermet (Suisse Romande) 43:15
Ormandy (Philadelphia) 44:06
Kondrashin (Concertgebouw) 44:16
Stokowski (Chicago) 44:23
Reiner (Chicago) 44:30
Svetlanov (URSS) 44:49
Beecham (RPO) 45:41
Dutoit (RPO) 45:44
Gergiev (Kirov) 45:51
Schwarz (Seattle) 45:52
Litton (LPO) 45:54

And we can add to that, Brian's Svetlanov recording with the LSO
Svetlanov (LSO) 48:52

Some observations:
1. I find it hard to believe the Batiz timing and wonder if he made cuts somewhere, as well as playing rather fast. (It may be fast but I still find it feels rather pedestrian.)
2. 'Wildness' (which is the word I use to describe Svetlanov's performance with his Russian guys) doesn't seem particularly related to speed. It's more about perceived attitude, I think. (In terms of timing he's comfortably in the middle of the list.)
3. I'm shocked to see that Litton's is the slowest in my collection. It didn't seem at all slow when I listened to it, and a revisiting is in order. (By contrast, Schwarz's 'felt' slow and ponderous, yet times out pretty much the same.)

[Sergeant Rock]

And we can add to that, Brian's Svetlanov recording with the LSO
Svetlanov (LSO) 48:52

And if you want to add these:

Järvi (Scottish National) 45:30
Previn (LSO) 46:05
Rostropovich (O de Paris) 47:43
Celibidache (RSO Stuttgart) 49:59
Celibidache (Munich Phil) 54:11


For those who know me, you won't have trouble guessing my favorite Scheherazade 

Sarge

[mc ukrneal]

And if you want to add these:

Järvi (Scottish National) 45:30
Previn (LSO) 46:05
Rostropovich (O de Paris) 47:43
Celibidache (RSO Stuttgart) 49:59
Celibidache (Munich Phil) 54:11


For those who know me, you won't have trouble guessing my favorite Scheherazade 

Sarge

Hmm. Let me think....

One more timing (though I think this is not as useful as movement by movement):
Mackerras 45.06.

[Sergeant Rock]

One more timing (though I think this is not as useful as movement by movement):

Celi/Munich 12:04  15:47  12:11  14:09

Sarge