African music is (was?) more rhythmically complex...

[karlhenning]

Well, let's see, an art form that is based entirely on improvisation, interaction and reaction time.

And at which such notable non-negros as Bach and Mozart excelled, right?

[karlhenning]

harmony being the most sophisticated of all the musical elements

I'm sorry, remind me how that was determined?

[lukeottevanger]

yes...many of those signatures i listed earlier aren't considered complex today, and aren't the be-all, end-all of rhythmic complexity, maybe irregular in some ways etc...but they are aren't simple either especially considering that they used those signatures to develop works of great length and complexity. That was the jist of my main point. So it's not-so simple rhythms in conjunction with a whole lot else going on; harmonically, melodically, texturally, sound color, form etc etc...Things get a lot more "complicated" rhythmically in a truer sense in the 20th for sure starting with Stravinsky onwards...

Still, no, the time signatures I selected from your list - which was the majority of them - are not complicated today but weren't complicated way back when either; they are all just common elaborations of triple or duple time, and the changing denominators (16, 8 etc) are merely a matter of notation, not of the metre itself. The ability to develop lengthy works in these metres is not any more a big deal than is the ability to write lengthy pieces in 3/4, 2/4 or 4/4.

Stil want to see that Beethoven piece in 11/16, btw...    

[Josquin des Prez]

And at which such notable non-negros as Bach and Mozart excelled, right?

Bach and Mozart excelled in improvising exceedingly complex polyrhythms which is defacto the most complex music in the world? I wasn't aware of that. 

[karlhenning]

Bach and Mozart excelled in improvising exceedingly complex polyrhythms which is defacto the most complex music in the world? I wasn't aware of that. 

I don't blame you for not reading your own words.  So I'll spell this out in a paraphrase.

In their practice of the art of performance, Bach and Mozart excelled in improvisation, interaction and reaction time.

[karlhenning]

Common sense...read on, carefully..."whereas rhythm and melody came naturally to us, harmony gradually evolved from what was partly an intellectual conception - no doubt one of the most original (& complex) conceptions of the human mind."

(a) I don't believe that any impermeable curtain separates rhythm and melody as "naturally occurring" and harmony as "intellectual evolution";  rhythm and melody have been subject to intellectual evolution, and harmony occurs naturally when women and men sing together — the harmonic result is necessarily not unison but some other interval, and if personal experience is any guide, not at all necessarily a perfect octave, either.

(b) On the whole, I don't have any great quarrel with the idea that harmony is in part a 'sophisticated elaboration' on the element of melody.  Still, since melody can be developed in distinct ways, I am not sure that puts melody in an immutably inferior place to harmony with regard to sophistication.  How would compare and weigh harmonic sophistication with melodic sophistication?

(c) Common sense actually tells me that to claim that harmony is naturally more sophisticated than rhythm is a bit like claiming that an oak is more of a tree than a linden.

[lukeottevanger]

I disagree, as a whole when used in developing works of great complexity it is certainly is a big deal...

Sorry to hammer this point, James, but how, precisely, is 3/8 a more tricky time sig to write a complex work in than 3/4?

[Josquin des Prez]

In their practice of the art of performance, Bach and Mozart excelled in improvisation, interaction and reaction time.

Yes but improvisation, interaction and reaction time aren't finite values. There are degrees to consider and i don't think that in terms of sheer physical prowess there's anything in the Western canon that compares to Jazz improvisation. Correct me if i'm wrong.

[Tapio Dmitriyevich]

BTW. Who's the most famous african composer of classical music for big orchestras?

[MN Dave]

BTW. Who's the most famous african composer of classical music for big orchestras?

Ellington?

[pjme]

http://chevalierdesaintgeorges.homestead.com/Others.html

From Le chevalier de Saint Georges to Adolphus Hailstorck  - take your pick!

Peter

[Tapio Dmitriyevich]

From Le chevalier de Saint Georges to Adolphus Hailstorck  - take your pick!

Any remarkable works worth a try? Not chamber, bigger orchestras...

[Morigan]

Saint-George's Violin concerti are nice in the classical style. Actually, they're better than Mozart's (Violin concerti weren't Mozart best medium). I think my favourite would be the A major one (2nd?)

[Josquin des Prez]

Saint-George's Violin concerti are nice in the classical style. Actually, they're better than Mozart's (Violin concerti weren't Mozart best medium). I think my favourite would be the A major one (2nd?)

Is that a portrait of Norbert Burgmueller you have there?

[Morigan]

Nope!

This is a spurious picture of Schubert as a teenager. It has been found a few years ago that the picture doesn't show the composer, but the physician Dr. Karl Josef Hartmann from Wels, a friend of Schubert.

I thought it was Schubert when I started using it, but now I'm used to this avatar and I keep it anyway. 

[lukeottevanger]

that wasnt my point, the tricky part is that there are many more variables involved on top of whichever signature involved, and overall as a musical whole its much more meticulous & concentrated...

That's little disingenuous, James - it's quite clear from this:

there is hordes of rhythmic complexity in the great classical legacy... Beethoven, who wrote piano sonatas in 3/8, 12/8, 9/16 and 11/16, and string quartets in ; Bach, who wrote in 7/8 and 12/16; Chopin, who wrote in 2/8, 6/4 and 12/4; Bartok, who wrote in 7/4, 8/4, 9/4 and many others; Barber, who wrote in 9/4, 14/8, 18/8 and many others; Leos Janacek, who wrote in 13/8, Elgar, who wrote in 9/8; and Stravinsky, who wrote in too many bizarre signatures to count.

that you were trying to give examples of 'complex' time signatures; if your intention had been only to show that the 'variables involved on top' are often very complex in western music (undeniably true) there would be no need to talk about individual time signatures at all.

[(poco) Sforzando]

That's all right; chalk it up to personal taste.

Based on the slurs, accompaniment patterns, and harmonic shifts as seen in the score, I consider my interpretation valid.

[(poco) Sforzando]

That's little disingenuous, James - it's quite clear from this:

that you were trying to give examples of 'complex' time signatures; if your intention had been only to show that the 'variables involved on top' are often very complex in western music (undeniably true) there would be no need to talk about individual time signatures at all.

Of course there is a great deal of rhythmic complexity in Western music. What one does not generally encounter before the 20th-century are rapid changes of meter within a single piece, and significant use of irregular (i.e., not duple or triple) time signatures.

[Bonehelm]

Whoa whoa whoa...are we all infected by 71db here? What's this "complexity" phenomenon? Who gives a shit if ANY music is complex or as simple as 123, mary has a little lamb can be great music too.

Complexity =/=  Good music

[karlhenning]

Good reminder.