Bach's Bungalow

[SimonNZ]

Latest episode in the Conversations With Tyler podcast:

Masaaki Suzuki on Interpreting Bach

[Pohjolas Daughter]

Latest episode in the Conversations With Tyler podcast:

Masaaki Suzuki on Interpreting Bach

Thanks for that link.  I hadn't heard about these podcasts before now.

PD

[Mandryka]

Question: Does Opfer have a global structure with a climax etc? The chorales in CU3?

This is from John Butt's book on the Bach passions -- it's not addressing my question, but it prompted my question, which is really about the "finish" of the whole.

Bach's more abstract collections that research a particular issue of compositional theory might seem to presuppose an even earlier mindset (i.e. that predating the era when music served text), which assumed a continuity between the fabric of the music and the structure of the cosmos, and thus the survival of a form of musical thought that was yet to be disenchanted. Nevertheless, most of the pieces in The Art of Fugue or The Musical Offering display some signs of 'finish'.33 This might be a consistency of figuration going beyond the contrapuntal tasks at hand, or a sense of trajectory, tension or culmination – all of which give the pieces a sort of individuality or 'self-consciousness', as a supplement to their didactic purposes.

Butt, John. Bach's Dialogue with Modernity (p. 14)

[Karl Henning]

[Jo498]

Question: Does Opfer have a global structure with a climax etc? The chorales in CU3?

This is from John Butt's book on the Bach passions -- it's not addressing my question, but it prompted my question, which is really about the "finish" of the whole.

Bach's more abstract collections that research a particular issue of compositional theory might seem to presuppose an even earlier mindset (i.e. that predating the era when music served text), which assumed a continuity between the fabric of the music and the structure of the cosmos, and thus the survival of a form of musical thought that was yet to be disenchanted. Nevertheless, most of the pieces in The Art of Fugue or The Musical Offering display some signs of 'finish'.33 This might be a consistency of figuration going beyond the contrapuntal tasks at hand, or a sense of trajectory, tension or culmination – all of which give the pieces a sort of individuality or 'self-consciousness', as a supplement to their didactic purposes.

Butt, John. Bach's Dialogue with Modernity (p. 14)

The "finish" of the individual pieces certainly goes beyond mere didactics. But I don't think there is any obvious "arch" within these collections. For the AoF or MO there isn't really an order about everyone agrees anyway, is there?
Or in CÜ 3 the biggest pieces are the frame and today the Eb major P & F are usually played together. Also, some chorale settings (like the "small" manualiter" ones) seem clearly alternatives to each other, to be chosen depending on the organ at hand or the kind of service.

I read once (maybe Martin Geck's Bach book, the only fat one I read) a comparison with baroque showcases or cabinets of curiosities that display special things, jewelry etc but not in a systematic fashion. Of course there is some system in these works like the rising complexity of the fugues but the order is not clearly or uniquely determined by this and they would not have played all of them
anyway.

[Mandryka]

For the AoF or MO there isn't really an order about everyone agrees anyway, is there?

Well as you can imagine there's a lot of ideas about that. It does seem likely that Bach intended an order, with a four part fugue at the end (It's mentioned in the CPE Bach/Agricola/Mizler obituary.)

Re Opfer, Dantone wtites this

Ursula Kirkendale, argued also by A. Basso in Frau Musika. According to the scholar, a connection can he drawn between the structure of The Musical Offering and the outline of an oration as set down by Quintiliano in his Institutio Oratorio. Following this outline, each part of The Musical Offering corresponds to a rule of rhetoric, that is, to the different functions of an address or narrative. Thus the work would be divided in two parts. The introduction (exordium) would include respectively the Ricercari in 3 and 6 voices, leaving the tasks of narration and argumentation to the several Canons. The conclusion then of Bach's discourse would he the Sonata and the Canon perpemus — the first of these, freed from strict contrapuntal formality, is suited to move the emotions and sentiments; the second piece stands as the definitive, irrefutable demonstration of reason and of intellectual rigour.

and the first edition suggest an order of course -- this again from Dantone

One hundred copies were printed; each consisting of five smaller sheaves or booklets, each of which contained its own numbered pages. In the first such booklet we find the frontispiece with its dedication to Frederick 11 of Prussia, and it is here that the work is presented as an offering to the Sovereign. The second booklet contains the Ricercara 3 and the Canon Perpetuus Super Thema Regium. The third contains diverse Canons; the fourth the Ricercara 6 as well as the Canons for 2 and for 4 voices. Lastly the fifth book contains the Sonata Sopr'il Soggetto Reale and a final Canon perpetuus.

[atardecer]

𝑻𝒉𝒆 𝑷𝒂𝒔𝒔𝒊𝒐 𝒔𝒆𝒄𝒖𝒏𝒅𝒖𝒎 𝑱𝒐𝒂𝒏𝒏𝒆𝒎 or 𝑺𝒕. 𝑱𝒐𝒉𝒏 𝑷𝒂𝒔𝒔𝒊𝒐𝒏 by 𝑱𝒐𝒉𝒂𝒏𝒏 𝑺𝒆𝒃𝒂𝒔𝒕𝒊𝒂𝒏 𝑩𝒂𝒄𝒉 was first performed on this day 7 April 1724, at Good Friday Vespers at the St. Nicholas Church.

J.S. Bach - St. John Passion
Marc Minkowski and Les Musiciens de Louvre

[SonicMan46]

The last few days, I've been going through my Well-Tempered Clavier (WTC) recordings on piano and harpsichord - boy, I've been culling these performances for years and now the 5 sets shown below remain (3 on piano, top, and 2 on harpsichord, bottom) - no expert on these works but comments (and many attached reviews) may help others just getting into these iconic compositions to make decisions.

Now there are MANY historic and more recent offerings and lots of personal preferences just reading the many pages of this thread - the reviews might help in choosing?  There are some additional performances in the attachments, CD sets that I've culled out (use to be up to 8 or 9 - many GMGers into these works likely have a dozen or two in their collections?).  Dave

P.S. a plug for Colin Booth (his website) - I've liked him as much as Glen Wilson - Booth is also an instrument maker and made his own harpsichord used in these recordings; plus, he ships free - when I purchased his two sets from the website, a sale was on for $20 USD for both.

[Mandryka]

The two harpsichord ones you kept are favourites of mine too.

[atardecer]

J.S. Bach - Trio Sonata BWV 528

Leo van Doeselaar, organ
Instrument: Henrick Bader, 1639/1643

Speaking of meaning in Bach's music, some have suggested (through studying various vocal works and how Bach chooses musical ideas based on the text) that all of Bach's music is infused with meaning. Some even going so far as to say there is nothing abstract in Bach. While I agree that Bach's music is infused with meaning, to suggest there is nothing abstract I think goes too far. Music is essentially an abstract art form, and is able to communicate things beyond verbal concepts. To suggest there is nothing abstract, creates too narrow of a perspective in my view. Another thing is Bach did not write words to any of his music as far as I know.

[AnotherSpin]

J.S. Bach - Trio Sonata BWV 528

Leo van Doeselaar, organ
Instrument: Henrick Bader, 1639/1643

Speaking of meaning in Bach's music, some have suggested (through studying various vocal works and how Bach chooses musical ideas based on the text) that all of Bach's music is infused with meaning. Some even going so far as to say there is nothing abstract in Bach. While I agree that Bach's music is infused with meaning, to suggest there is nothing abstract I think goes too far. Music is essentially an abstract art form, and is able to communicate things beyond verbal concepts. To suggest there is nothing abstract, creates too narrow of a perspective in my view. Another thing is Bach did not write words to any of his music as far as I know.

We often know things that can't be put into words, and that doesn't make them abstract. Meaning isn't bound to language alone

[atardecer]

We often know things that can't be put into words, and that doesn't make them abstract. Meaning isn't bound to language alone

The meanings of abstract are:

"existing in thought or as an idea but not having a physical or concrete existence:"

"relating to or denoting art that does not attempt to represent external reality, but rather seeks to achieve its effect using shapes, colors, and textures:"

So, by either definition I think Bach's music must be to some degree abstract, no? Considering some of the things it expresses only exist as a thought or an idea. I also do not think all of his music attempts to 'represent external reality'.

This said I could agree that Bach's music is less abstract than many other composers. I think that is part of why I'm drawn to it. It seems very precise, specific, dialed-in. It is like a very focused idea, it isn't dispersed, it doesn't wander. I think Ravel's music also shares some of these traits. 

[AnotherSpin]

The meanings of abstract are:

"existing in thought or as an idea but not having a physical or concrete existence:"

"relating to or denoting art that does not attempt to represent external reality, but rather seeks to achieve its effect using shapes, colors, and textures:"

So, by either definition I think Bach's music must be to some degree abstract, no? Considering some of the things it expresses only exist as a thought or an idea. I also do not think all of his music attempts to 'represent external reality'.

This said I could agree that Bach's music is less abstract than many other composers. I think that is part of why I'm drawn to it. It seems very precise, specific, dialed-in. It is like a very focused idea, it isn't dispersed, it doesn't wander. I think Ravel's music also shares some of these traits. 

Perhaps we're talking about slightly different things.

Ok, 'existing in thought or as an idea.' One could ask the question: is there existence beyond the system of thought? Or, is there a reality beyond thought? And if the answer is yes (which for me is beyond doubt), then music certainly cannot be reduced merely to a thinkable abstraction.

[atardecer]

Perhaps we're talking about slightly different things.

Ok, 'existing in thought or as an idea.' One could ask the question: is there existence beyond the system of thought? Or, is there a reality beyond thought? And if the answer is yes (which for me is beyond doubt), then music certainly cannot be reduced merely to a thinkable abstraction.

I'll have to think about that. If you think Bach's music is not abstract then I think Schiff would agree with you, he said something along those lines in a lecture. I suspect some people are influenced by a dislike for modern abstract visual art, and don't want Bach's music connected to that concept of art. So the term 'abstract' itself is somewhat polluted in their mind. But I think the concept of abstract as it pertains to music is a different thing. I think effective music generally needs some formal elements that are not abstract, these contribute to it having a convincing form. Though for me what I consider the abstract aspects of music are essentially the most powerful, they are the parts one feels but can't really explain, I think the things that can be explained are the more mundane elements. This is why I don't like the idea of Bach's music being reduced to things like - oh this is where the prophet sounds the trumpet, or this part means they are dancing in the forest etc. Or whatever. To me that is way too narrow, too limited, and doesn't reflect how I experience his music. But I see you are talking about something else that you suspect is something like a real physical other world music is representing.

"Music is not a sound but an idea." - Schoenberg

[AnotherSpin]

I'll have to think about that. If you think Bach's music is not abstract then I think Schiff would agree with you, he said something along those lines in a lecture. I suspect some people are influenced by a dislike for modern abstract visual art, and don't want Bach's music connected to that concept of art. So the term 'abstract' itself is somewhat polluted in their mind. But I think the concept of abstract as it pertains to music is a different thing. I think effective music generally needs some formal elements that are not abstract, these contribute to it having a convincing form. Though for me what I consider the abstract aspects of music are essentially the most powerful, they are the parts one feels but can't really explain, I think the things that can be explained are the more mundane elements. This is why I don't like the idea of Bach's music being reduced to things like - oh this is where the prophet sounds the trumpet, or this part means they are dancing in the forest etc. Or whatever. To me that is way too narrow, too limited, and doesn't reflect how I experience his music. But I see you are talking about something else that you suspect is something like a real physical other world music is representing.

"Music is not a sound but an idea." - Schoenberg

Now I see more clearly that when we speak of the abstract, we mean different things. What I have in mind is a conceptual idea — perhaps in the Platonic sense. What I'm trying to say is that conceptual or verbal language can never fully capture what music is. There's always something beyond it — something that can't be put into words. And in that sense, Bach's music might be a perfect example. So perhaps our views are actually closer than they first seemed.

[prémont]

"Music is not a sound but an idea." - Schoenberg

A somewhat cryptic claim. Didn't he just mean, that music exists in the composers mind as an idea, but that it can't be fully communicated to other people, neither through sheet music nor through performance?

[prémont]

Now I see more clearly that when we speak of the abstract, we mean different things. What I have in mind is a conceptual idea — perhaps in the Platonic sense. What I'm trying to say is that conceptual or verbal language can never fully capture what music is. There's always something beyond it — something that can't be put into words. And in that sense, Bach's music might be a perfect example. So perhaps our views are actually closer than they first seemed.

This seems to me to be spot on.

[atardecer]

A somewhat cryptic claim. Didn't he just mean, that music exists in the composers mind as an idea, but that it can't be fully communicated to other people, neither through sheet music nor through performance?

I think that is essentially what it means, which supports my point that music is to a certain degree abstract. Not in the sense of some vague blob on a canvas, but as an idea without physical form. Even if the music is symbolizing some very real non-abstract objects in a Platonic sense, one does not fully perceive them that way, (at least I don't) one just gets a sense. Therefore, our perception of them is in the abstract. This is actually the full quote:

"Music is not a sound but an idea, but ordinary people can't listen to it that way." - Schoenberg

[Mandryka]

Here's  the River Jordan, red  with the blood of Christ

[prémont]

Here's  the River Jordan, red  with the blood of Christ

Thanks for this. Certainly an excellent version which is made rather "spicy" with the use of the Fagot 16' on the HW (left hand).