Bach's Bungalow

[FideLeo]

For one thing, there is a document Bach submitted to the Leipzig council around 1730 where he explicitly stated that 3 voices to a part are the minimum he considered desirable for choral works.

Parrott's book The Essential Bach Choir and Rifkin's own article Bach's Choral Ideal obviously present a different reading of the Entwurff from the one adopted above.   Parrott and Rifkin believe that the "3 voices to a part minimum" really refers to a roster from which to draw his singer(s) for each performance rather than the actual number needed or desired in each occasion.  Don't think the OVPP theory can be established with any creditablity if it can't even reasonably address Bach's own words, but it has. 

BTW, Breitkopf & Härtel's new score of the Mass in b minor has Joshua Rifkin as the editor (2006).  Does this mean his view on the music is being acknowledged?  I think so.

[Norbeone]

A little less rigidity might be in order.  I am quite happy that versions are available in both OVPP and larger forces - the best of both worlds.

Exactly. An important comment that should be taken into everyone's consideration.

[Ephemerid]

Nice, James.   

I'll add one by scientist Lewis Thomas:

"I would vote for Bach, all of Bach, [to be] streamed out into space, over and over again. We would be bragging of course, but it is surely excusable to put the best possible face on at the beginning of such an acquaintance. We can tell the harder truths later." 

[Guido]

Two questions: Does anyone know who J.S. Bach's musical heroes were, or any composers he particularly admired? Is there any indication that he was aware of his own importance?

[Opus106]

Does anyone know who J.S. Bach's musical heroes were, or any composers he particularly admired?

Buxtehude was one.

[Josquin des Prez]

Does anyone know who J.S. Bach's musical heroes were, or any composers he particularly admired?

Buxtehude was his youthful hero. He also came to admire Vivaldi and Couperin early on, but i think at that point he was already aware of his own superiority. My guess is that he favored Handel the most among his peers considering he made a conscious effort to meet him, but it's hard to tell.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Two questions: Does anyone know who J.S. Bach's musical heroes were, or any composers he particularly admired? Is there any indication that he was aware of his own importance?

In addition to those already mentioned, he admired Zelenka quite a lot (and probably knew him personally). From what I've heard, Rameau also. Supposedly Forkel's bio (the first, from about 1800) contains a list of contemporaries he liked, given by his son CPE, but I haven't read it...maybe more advanced Bachologists can give details.

Another interesting point. Unusually for his time, he took a major interest in older music, and it seems he had a good knowledge of European composers going back a couple of centuries. Among those he admired were Palestrina, Frescobaldi, and Froberger...I would assume also Schütz, the greatest German composer preceding him. His personal music library was said to be massive, one of the best in Germany.

Personally, I'd be curious to know his views (if any) on such figures as Monteverdi, Gabrieli, Purcell, and Scarlatti.

[Guido]

Cheers for these answers - all very interesting.

Just now I was wondering whether anyone had recorded just the chorales, separate from their various sources? It would be wonderful to hear them all in one place, sung by a quality choir, instead of on the piano as one usually studies them.

EDIT: maybe this is what I am talking about:
http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Edition-Vol-23-Chorale/dp/B00004XPLH/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1226454610&sr=8-1

[71 dB]

Does anyone know who J.S. Bach's musical heroes were, or any composers he particularly admired?

Buxtehude, Bruhns, Fasch, Weiss and Kuhnau at least.

[Opus106]

Can someone tell me why "Original Version" is specified next to most of the tracks?
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/9185211

Thanks.

[Guido]

http://imslp.org/wiki/Chorale_Harmonisations%2C_BWV_250-438_%28Bach%2C_Johann_Sebastian%29

The Breitkopf edition of the complete chorales is one I have seen before and I like the way it is reduced onto two staves - does anyone know if there if there is an index of these anywhere? If not, in which order they are listed? And if not that which numbers are the ones used in John's and Matthew's passions (I know the names, but can't be bothered to trawl through the whole list of them...)

[prémont]

Can someone tell me why "Original Version" is specified next to most of the tracks?
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/9185211

Thanks.

No idea, and the concept of "original version" used about a modern piano rendering is difficult to explain.

[Opus106]

Hey, thanks for replying, premont. Since then, I have seen those words attached to some other Bach-on-the-piano discs as well.

the concept of "original version" used about a modern piano rendering is difficult to explain.

Yes, that's what has been bugging me.

[nut-job]

No idea, and the concept of "original version" used about a modern piano rendering is difficult to explain.

I don't think the statment has anything to do with the performance.  These works were not published in Bach's lifetime and I do not believe an autograph manuscript survives.  What we have is based on hand copies made by Bach's associates and they may be claiming to have used what they believe is an earlier source.

[Marc]

Two questions: Does anyone know who J.S. Bach's musical heroes were, or any composers he particularly admired?

Add: Sweelinck, Pachelbel, Reincken, Böhm, Marais (with all the other French influences), Johann Christoph Bach (his eldest brother, who taught him), Keiser and Telemann.

Is there any indication that he was aware of his own importance?

That's very difficult to say. But surely there are some indications. For instance: he wouldn't let his employers stop him from leaving and developing himself (Arnstadt, Mühlhausen, Weimar, Cöthen). And he certainly knew that the Matthäus-Passion and Mass in b minor were something very special, because he made a carefully edited manuscript (with different colours of ink) of both works. I think he definitely wanted to preserve at least some of his works for posterity.

[Opus106]

On which day should Bach's birth be celebrated in this "modern" age?

Wikipedia states that he was born on March 31 as per the New Style (or Gregorian Calendar); and as per the Julian Calendar, on 21st March. On the day before yesterday (it's the 23rd here already), I saw an Internet radio station celebrate his birth, and just to double-check, I went to jsbach.org, which also claims that he was born on the 21st. :S

[prémont]

Hey, thanks for replying, premont. Since then, I have seen those words attached to some other Bach-on-the-piano discs as well.

Yes, that's what has been bugging me.

Afterthought: "Original version" as opposed to e.g. an arrangement by Busoni.

It would be unnecessary to write this when it is about a harpsichord rendering.

[Opus106]

Afterthought: "Original version" as opposed to e.g. an arrangement by Busoni.

It would be unnecessary to write this when it is about a harpsichord rendering.

Good point. I'll keep an eye out for harpsichord discs, if any, that has the tag.

[jowcol]

Ahhh Bach—

I guess I've held off on contributing to this thread because I hold Bach in such awe.  Although a lot of my tastes run to late 19th and 20th Century, I simply adore Bach.  No other composer, in my book, represents the kind of perfection that Bach seemed to realize effortlessly.

My love of Bach grew from going to College at William and Mary.  In Colonial Williamsburg next door, there were free candlelight organ recitals two nights a week in the old colonial church, complete with a nice graveyard that had the tombstone for my namesake "Col John Page, Ret." Right outside the bell tower when you walked in.

Mozart or Bach?  I must admit, I really don't "get" Mozart that much.  I've heard this debate, and some people say Bach is too mechanical, but to me that music is beyond human.

Harpischord:
Well Tempered Clavier Book I or II?  I guess I lean towards II, but what I've done on my mp3 player is weed out the 10 or so the interested me the least (all in major keys—I love Bach in minor key), and play them on shuffle, so the boundaries don't matter as much.
His concerto for 4 harpsichoards after Vivaldi is fantastic.  I like the Vivaldi from el Estro Harmonico, but I love the Bach more!  The last movement is so powerful, and the way the strings back the harpsichords is too much!  Some of the other harpsichord concerti are great—I like what I think I is the D Minor.  (I'm too lazy to check).
2 and 3 part inventions are musts.  2 Pt invention #4 crams so much in so little space.

Organ:
I think I love Bach most on the organ.  Some highlights for me, (beyond the obvious ones)
The Passacaglia and Fugue in C Minor, to me, is the cornerstone of western civilization.  The relentless development of variations over that simple theme that goes to dazzling heights.
The fugue from the Chromatic Fantasy and Fugue is some of the most life-affirming music I know.  It is my refuge in the darkest times.
The Prelude from the "Wedge" is some powerful stuff as well.
I'm also big on the middle movement from the Trio in E Minor. 
The opening minute of the Concerto in D Minor (after Vivaldi) may be the single most beautiful minute of organ music ever written.
And last, the "Dorian" Toccata and Fugue doesn't get enough appreciation.  The Toccatta is gorgeous—particularly towards the end, and the Fugue may be the heaviest one Bach ever wrote.
Note:  There is a lot of free downloadable Bach organ music at: http://www.blockmrecords.org/bach/catalog.php?scope=recorded
This is made available as a grant, and is yours for the listening.  I can't say it's the best version of each piece, but an amazing resource.

Brandenburgs:
Okay—I'm predictable—I like 2, 3 and 5 best.  And I HATE it when a piano is used on 5.
The first movement of five,  before the solo, has some amazing moments, it sounds fluid and natural, and at the same time, mechanically perfect.  And 2 and 3 are stellar.

Choral Works:
St. John's or St Matthews?   End to end, I like Saint Matthew's better, but the overture on St. John's is really great.   Have to love the B Minor Mass, and the Magnificat is great as well.

What's not to like about Bach?  I'm not sure if I can gush over his violin concerti as much as those in Vivaldi's El Estro Harmonico, but that is some stiff competition.   But is anything of his bad?  I'd find that hard to believe.   I know I'm leaving out a lot of good stuff of his, but this is the best I can do in one pass.

[Frumaster]

Ahhh Bach—

Mozart or Bach?  I must admit, I really don't "get" Mozart that much.  I've heard this debate, and some people say Bach is too mechanical, but to me that music is beyond human.

I think both Mozart and Bach have almost a God-like, religious impact on listeners.  It has something to do with a rigid structure beneath layers and layers of complexity.  Its funny to me that later composers who attempted to be romantic/trancendental actually come across as humanist by comparison (maybe not so surprising when we think of the romantic era's enlightenment ideals).  Those bourgeois pigs!    Ok, just kidding.  Their music has its own important place, but it does not surpass Bach in terms of spiritual, out-of-this-world-ness.