Bach's Bungalow

[anasazi]

I either haven't noticed that or don't remember noticing; nevertheless I'll listen to the piece this evening. One Bach piece that definitely sounded Handelian to me when I first listened to it, was the Orchestral Suite No. 4 from which he used material for the opening of BWV 110.

Not like Handel, as in the Fireworks music.  More like the four-square plod of the various anthems.  Actually, Ombra came to mind at one point, but that is in 3, not 4.  Perhaps it is just the feeling.  Although when I hear Fischer-Dieskau sing Schlummert, I don't feel that way all. It's only when I try to play it on my keyboard.  Maybe it's just me!!!


Now I have to go and listen to the Suite No. 4 to see if I can hear what you mean.....

[Antoine Marchand]

Anyway, you can always get Alvini on the excellent Tactus website: quick attention, low prices, secure server and, in some cases, free shipping. 

Just checked: Alvini's disc costs EUR 9.90.- on Tactus. Same price for Vartolo's double set of Goldberg Variations:

http://www.tactus.biz/store/product_info.php?products_id=326

[prémont]

Just checked: Alvini's disc costs EUR 9.90.- on Tactus. Same price for Vartolo's double set of Goldberg Variations:

http://www.tactus.biz/store/product_info.php?products_id=326

Thanks Antoine.

A propos Vartolo (out of topic): What do you think of Vartolos Frescobaldi (or Trabaci for that matter)? At first I found him dreadful, but I have succeded to acquire the taste for him, and now I enjoy him, more so than I enjoy Loreggian. But I maintain, that I do not find Vartolos style suited for the AoF.

[Antoine Marchand]

A propos Vartolo (out of topic): What do you think of Vartolos Frescobaldi (or Trabaci for that matter)? At first I found him dreadful, but I have succeded to acquire the taste for him, and now I enjoy him, more so than I enjoy Loreggian. But I maintain, that I do not find Vartolos style suited for the AoF.

I like very much his Frescobaldi and I have purchased all his discs on Tactus. I think Vartolo and Jean-Marc Aymes (Ligia Digital) are my favorite Frescobaldi's performers. But Vartolo has not an easy style –sometimes is exasperating slow and deliberated, like Rübsam in Bach's organ works- and Frescobaldi himself is an extremely complex composer. I also purchased Vartolo's discs devoted to Zippoli and Cavazzoni, but I have not had time to listen to them yet.     

If you recall I have been a strong supporter of Vartolo's AoF on Naxos. But I must recognize that your comment about his lack of a basic pulse ruined to some degree my pleasure with that recording. Incredibly, I was not aware of that fact until your comment and now when I listen to that disc, it's permanently in my mind. Well, I suppose those are the unpredictable consequences of the dialogue.     

[Bulldog]

If you recall I have been a strong supporter of Vartolo's AoF on Naxos. But I must recognize that your comment about his lack of a basic pulse ruined to some degree my pleasure with that recording. Incredibly, I was not aware of that fact until your comment and now when I listen to that disc, it's permanently in my mind. Well, I suppose those are the unpredictable consequences of the dialogue. 

Let's be clear here.  There's little point in listening to Vartolo if you want a strong basic pulse; he's all about rhythmic hesitations, staggering of musical lines and other agogic devices.  For me, what makes Vartolo's AoF compelling and memorable is how superbly he varies the pulse.

So don't fight Vartolo, just go with his flow.

[Antoine Marchand]

Let's be clear here.  There's little point in listening to Vartolo if you want a strong basic pulse; he's all about rhythmic hesitations, staggering of musical lines and other agogic devices.  For me, what makes Vartolo's AoF compelling and memorable is how superbly he varies the pulse.

So don't fight Vartolo, just go with his flow.

Yes, I understand all those characteristics and his recording of the AoF is still one of my favorites. But now, I am aware of his particularly variable pulse there: any "variation" requires, as matter of definition, a recognizable "fundamental pulse" on which to come back and, sometimes, that lacks in Vartolo. And I don't see that characteristic like a problem inherent to Vartolo's style in Bach; for example, I don't see it in his Goldbergs.

[Opus106]

Not like Handel, as in the Fireworks music.  More like the four-square plod of the various anthems.  Actually, Ombra came to mind at one point, but that is in 3, not 4.  Perhaps it is just the feeling.  Although when I hear Fischer-Dieskau sing Schlummert, I don't feel that way all. It's only when I try to play it on my keyboard.  Maybe it's just me!!!

Ah. Then it's not surprising that I'm not hearing the same thing as you are: I'm utterly ignorant of Handel's output beyond a couple of orchestral works (yes, the obvious couple).

[Antoine Marchand]

Ah. Then it's not surprising that I'm not hearing the same thing as you are: I'm utterly ignorant of Handel's output beyond a couple of orchestral works (yes, the obvious couple).

I have always felt especially "Bachian" the works from Handel's Op. 2, excellent trio sonatas which perfectly could have been composed by Bach... A great compliment for "il caro Sassone", I think. 

[Bulldog]

Yes, I understand all those characteristics and his recording of the AoF is still one of my favorites. But now, I am aware of his particularly variable pulse there: any "variation" requires, as matter of definition, a recognizable "fundamental pulse" on which to come back and, sometimes, that lacks in Vartolo. And I don't see that characteristic like a problem inherent to Vartolo's style in Bach; for example, I don't see it in his Goldbergs.

I look at this issue in a simple fashion.  Significant variation from a basic pulse involves risk.  Of course, it also involves some great potential rewards. As the listener, I decide the net result, and for me Vartolo's net results are superb in the AoF.

[Brahmsian]

Alright, after reading Eric Siblin's book, The Cello Suites, I'm officially in the mood to finally start REALLY exploring Bach's works (besides the cello suites and solo violin suites).

Time to finally join the fray of Bach-o-holics. 

[DavidW]

Cool Ray!   For keyboard why not try WTC book 2?  There are many moments of pure beauty. 0:)

One of my favorite cantatas is bwv 82, you might want to try that one.  Oh it is so dark.

[Brahmsian]

Cool Ray!   For keyboard why not try WTC book 2?  There are many moments of pure beauty. 0:)

One of my favorite cantatas is bwv 82, you might want to try that one.  Oh it is so dark.

I'm pretty excited, because there is A LOT of Bach I have yet to hear.  I have only heard the WTC a few times, and there are a lot of beautiful pieces.  I'm having a bit of trouble with 'getting full enjoyment' of his keyboard works, but it has been awhile now since I've listened to them.

So keyboard works, Mass in B minor (only heard it once in a live concert performance), St. Matthew's Passion and St. John's Passion, and harpsichord concertos..........so much I haven't explored yet.  Should be a lot of fun! 

[DavidW]

Wow you really haven't heard alot of Bach!   I actually assumed you've heard all of the warhorses I was going to start naming off bwv #s for organ works.

Check out bwv 1052, that is my second favorite concerto (my fav being the double violin).  I believe there was a cantata that used that as a sinfonia... can't remember

[Brahmsian]

Wow you really haven't heard alot of Bach!   I actually assumed you've heard all of the warhorses I was going to start naming off bwv #s for organ works.

Check out bwv 1052, that is my second favorite concerto (my fav being the double violin).  I believe there was a cantata that used that as a sinfonia... can't remember

I have the violin concertos, including the double violin concerto (enjoy very much) and the Brandenburgs (don't really enjoy).

I am interested in learning more about the cantatas and the harpsichord concertos, including the double harpsichord concertos (of which a movement is played in Kubrick's Barry Lyndon).

I have heard one disc of cantatas (with Gardiner), but it was awhile ago and, at the time, just really wasn't interested in the Baroque sound and Bach at the time (other than the cello suites or violin sontas/partitas).

But I'm ready and interested now. 

I know I'm in the rest place since there are a lot of Bach experts and enthusiasts here, and tons of thread on his music! 

[DavidW]

Yeah the Bachians on board can be quite helpful.

[SonicMan46]

I'm pretty excited, because there is A LOT of Bach I have yet to hear.  I have only heard the WTC a few times, and there are a lot of beautiful pieces.  I'm having a bit of trouble with 'getting full enjoyment' of his keyboard works, but it has been awhile now since I've listened to them.

So keyboard works, Mass in B minor (only heard it once in a live concert performance), St. Matthew's Passion and St. John's Passion, and harpsichord concertos..........so much I haven't explored yet.  Should be a lot of fun! 

Hi Ray - if you currently do not own much of the vocal works, then one of the best bargains around at the moment is shown below - has been discussed in one of the other threads; now selling for about $44 on the Amazon Marketplace; contains 22 discs and includes the Passions, Mass in BMinor, et al.  I already own a handful of the Gardiner recordings but will sell them off, so even more of a deal!  Dave 

[DavidW]

Gardiner's interpretation of the passions, xmas oratorio etc is rather superficial.

[Antoine Marchand]

Gardiner's interpretation of the passions, xmas oratorio etc is rather superficial.

My own history with Gardiner has not been easy -he sometimes seems to me excessively "nervous"-, but I have never considered him as a "superficial" director. Right now -motivated by your comment-, I am listening to his Johannes-Passion and, IMO, it's an excellent version, superbly sung and, overall, quite recommendable.

I don't know if he is a good choice for introductory purposes, but I think he is a very respectable Bachian.

BTW, this is only my opinion and David's opinion is also a respectable opinion, IMHO. 

[DavidW]

He goes too fast, taking everything at a jaunty gallop.  And then he has so much trouble with clear articulation.  I wouldn't call Gardiner a respectable Bachian as much as the worst I've heard.

[Bulldog]

My own history with Gardiner has not been easy -he sometimes seems to me excessively "nervous"-, but I have never considered him as a "superficial" director. Right now -motivated by your comment-, I am listening to his Johannes-Passion and, IMO, it's an excellent version, superbly sung and, overall, quite recommendable.

I agree.  Gardiner does receive the tag of "superficial" from some sources, but my take on it is that Gardiner offers highly celebratory interpretations instead of devotional readings.  For me, that's just the ticket.