Author Topic: Bach's Bungalow  (Read 120174 times)

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Offline (: premont :)

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Re: Bach's Bungalow
« Reply #300 on: May 25, 2011, 02:08:04 PM »
Any idea about Barbara Klinkhammer's WTC?

Do not know them, but they look mandatory. I have ordered them to day, so within a couple of weeks I may be able to answer.
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Antoine Marchand

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Re: Bach's Bungalow
« Reply #301 on: May 25, 2011, 03:25:58 PM »
Do not know them, but they look mandatory. I have ordered them to day, so within a couple of weeks I may be able to answer.

Excellent! I have even tought to pay the EUR 28 of shipping costs just to get those two volumes. I don't know if you noticed a previous post of mine about a new recording of the violin & harpsichord sonatas, recorded on Flora, with Fernandez, Alard and Pierlot. I can't imagine a bad recording from that team.  :)

Offline (: premont :)

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Re: Bach's Bungalow
« Reply #302 on: May 25, 2011, 08:25:03 PM »
I don't know if you noticed a previous post of mine about a new recording of the violin & harpsichord sonatas, recorded on Flora, with Fernandez, Alard and Pierlot. I can't imagine a bad recording from that team.  :)

I certainly did. An even more mandatory set.
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Offline Brian

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Re: Bach's Bungalow
« Reply #303 on: July 03, 2011, 11:49:31 AM »
Just dropping by to let you guys know that Clavier-Ubung III is the 74th-longest article on Wikipedia!

jlaurson

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Re: Bach's Bungalow
« Reply #304 on: July 16, 2011, 02:54:13 AM »
As with all his Bach performances, Glenn Gould doesn't touch the pedal, preferring to emphasize line above tone. Often hailed as one of the greatest piano recordings ever, this is an extraordinary set, with some fugues played so slowly they almost fall apart and others taken at a speed your ears can only just keep up.

Are you re-posting Amazon descriptions or what exactly is going on here?  ???

Antoine Marchand

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Re: Bach's Bungalow
« Reply #305 on: July 23, 2011, 08:31:05 PM »
Tonight I was listening to the Second Part of the Mätthaus-Passion (John Butt/ Dunedin Consort & Players, Linn Records). I have recalled this old question: Has somebody an interpretation of the aria for bass Gebt mir mainen Jesum wieder?

I mean this aria has an "air" totally different to the previous and subsequent numbers. It's a wonderful aria, with an amazing violin solo, but its character it's difficult to understand. Judas has understood the magnitude of his betrayal and has tried to give back the silver pieces to the priests, who have rejected them. Then Judas departs and hangs himself. Then comes this aria, full of some exalted proud and even a sort of joy. I love this piece, but I don't really get to understand its character. Has somebody a plausible explanation? Maybe the soul singing its triumph over material things and money?

Here two versions of this aria:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/jwZc5X1xhhA" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/jwZc5X1xhhA</a>
(I have put this video because I consider interesting the violin playing, although it's a bit disturbing that the violinist and Mertens don't seem quite on the same page)


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/TSc297fHSK0" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/TSc297fHSK0</a>
« Last Edit: July 23, 2011, 08:32:36 PM by toñito »

Offline (: premont :)

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Re: Bach's Bungalow
« Reply #306 on: July 23, 2011, 11:15:56 PM »
Tonight I was listening to the Second Part of the Mätthaus-Passion (John Butt/ Dunedin Consort & Players, Linn Records). I have recalled this old question: Has somebody an interpretation of the aria for bass Gebt mir mainen Jesum wieder?

I mean this aria has an "air" totally different to the previous and subsequent numbers. It's a wonderful aria, with an amazing violin solo, but its character it's difficult to understand. Judas has understood the magnitude of his betrayal and has tried to give back the silver pieces to the priests, who have rejected them. Then Judas departs and hangs himself. Then comes this aria, full of some exalted proud and even a sort of joy. I love this piece, but I don't really get to understand its character. Has somebody a plausible explanation? Maybe the soul singing its triumph over material things and money?


I never heard exalted proud nor joy in this aria, but on the contrary rage and to some extent dispair. The aria represents the believing souls comment, and expresses his/her rage over Judas´betrayal of Jesus and the wish that Jesus should be set free again. Accordingly I find the Dunrdin interpretation a bit tame and the Koopman interpretation more appropiate.
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Antoine Marchand

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Re: Bach's Bungalow
« Reply #307 on: July 24, 2011, 04:24:13 AM »
I never heard exalted proud nor joy in this aria, but on the contrary rage and to some extent dispair. The aria represents the believing souls comment, and expresses his/her rage over Judas´betrayal of Jesus and the wish that Jesus should be set free again. Accordingly I find the Dunrdin interpretation a bit tame and the Koopman interpretation more appropiate.

Well my point is that I don't listen to rage or desperation in the music. The text obviously expresses a request: Jesus must be given back, as the silver pieces were given back to the priests (I see a symmetry there). But more than anything, I hear a proud and secure order; not anguish at all. I agree with you: The Dunedin is not very successful here, especially because the violin is not expressive enough.

Offline (: premont :)

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Re: Bach's Bungalow
« Reply #308 on: July 24, 2011, 05:45:26 AM »
Well my point is that I don't listen to rage or desperation in the music. The text obviously expresses a request: Jesus must be given back, as the silver pieces were given back to the priests (I see a symmetry there). But more than anything, I hear a proud and secure order; not anguish at all. I agree with you: The Dunedin is not very successful here, especially because the violin is not expressive enough.

Mmm. Intersting how we hear the music differently. But in these ears Koopman´s violin soloist exactly expresses the rage, whereas Butt´s violinist expresses neither nor.
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jlaurson

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Re: Bach's Bungalow
« Reply #309 on: July 26, 2011, 07:18:23 AM »
I never heard exalted proud nor joy in this aria, but on the contrary rage and to some extent dispair. The aria represents the believing souls comment, and expresses his/her rage over Judas´betrayal of Jesus and the wish that Jesus should be set free again. Accordingly I find the Dunrdin interpretation a bit tame and the Koopman interpretation more appropiate.

The rage of helplessness is what I hear, if anything. Neither pride nor joy.

karlhenning

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Re: Bach's Bungalow
« Reply #310 on: July 28, 2011, 05:15:05 AM »
I've been thinking of Gidon Kremer's survey of the solo Partitas & Suites (and likely will fetch it in at some point).  Found a DVD, Back to Bach, with performances of the Partitas and an hourlong documentary, at the soon-to-be-shuttered Borders.

Leon

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Re: Bach's Bungalow
« Reply #311 on: July 28, 2011, 05:22:03 AM »
I've been thinking of Gidon Kremer's survey of the solo Partitas & Suites (and likely will fetch it in at some point).  Found a DVD, Back to Bach, with performances of the Partitas and an hourlong documentary, at the soon-to-be-shuttered Borders.

GK's partitas and sonatas are very good to my ears.

Bulldog

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Re: Bach's Bungalow
« Reply #312 on: July 28, 2011, 06:06:10 AM »
Tonight I was listening to the Second Part of the Mätthaus-Passion (John Butt/ Dunedin Consort & Players, Linn Records). I have recalled this old question: Has somebody an interpretation of the aria for bass Gebt mir mainen Jesum wieder?

I mean this aria has an "air" totally different to the previous and subsequent numbers. It's a wonderful aria, with an amazing violin solo, but its character it's difficult to understand. Judas has understood the magnitude of his betrayal and has tried to give back the silver pieces to the priests, who have rejected them. Then Judas departs and hangs himself. Then comes this aria, full of some exalted proud and even a sort of joy. I love this piece, but I don't really get to understand its character. Has somebody a plausible explanation? Maybe the soul singing its triumph over material things and money?

Interesting topic.  Overall, I've felt for a long time that some of Bach's instrumental music doesn't exactly line up with the text, that the music is much less negative in mood than the text.  That's how I feel about the referenced bass aria.  Although the text is certainly in the rage and despair mode, I don't hear music that expresses those emotions.  Yes, the singer can inject a degree of despair through his vocal expressions, but I find the general musical mood to have an heroic character. 

Offline North Star

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Re: Bach's Bungalow
« Reply #313 on: July 28, 2011, 09:48:48 AM »
I've been thinking of Gidon Kremer's survey of the solo Partitas & Suites (and likely will fetch it in at some point).  Found a DVD, Back to Bach, with performances of the Partitas and an hourlong documentary, at the soon-to-be-shuttered Borders.

Kremer is very good, but I'd suggest Viktoria Mullova's 2009 Onyx recording if you haven't heard it - the gut stringed Guadagnini sounds great
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_n323CH618
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Offline North Star

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Re: Bach's Bungalow
« Reply #314 on: July 31, 2011, 08:51:27 AM »
Interesting stuff, thanks
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Offline Marc

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Re: Bach's Bungalow
« Reply #315 on: July 31, 2011, 11:38:32 AM »
Interesting topic.  Overall, I've felt for a long time that some of Bach's instrumental music doesn't exactly line up with the text, that the music is much less negative in mood than the text.  That's how I feel about the referenced bass aria.  Although the text is certainly in the rage and despair mode, I don't hear music that expresses those emotions.  Yes, the singer can inject a degree of despair through his vocal expressions, but I find the general musical mood to have an heroic character.

Well, I guess that the singer is impersonating Judas and his thoughts. To me, the solo violin is kinda Augenmusik for and also sounding like a soul in despair, who doesn't know which way to go.
I hear rage in it, too, probably because Judas is bitterly infuriated about his wrong decision to betray his friend and master. He's singing this after his suicide, he's dead now .... which really makes him a 'lost son'.
I don't hear a so-called 'positive' mood in this music. I think it's just because much baroque music is written in dance-style that nowadays people think many pieces are sounding like 'good fun'. But for the churchgoers in Bach's time things were probably easier to understand.
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Offline Marc

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Re: Bach's Bungalow
« Reply #316 on: July 31, 2011, 11:45:50 AM »
[Koopman, Mertens et al]
(I have put this video because I consider interesting the violin playing, although it's a bit disturbing that the violinist and Mertens don't seem quite on the same page)

I don't hear the 'bit disturbing' problems, to be honest, not even with the score at hand. I think it's a great interpretation.
The Butt performance is interpeting this aria as a piece of sadness and regrets. It's a valuable choice, but I personally prefer the despair and rage combination, as I argued before.
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Antoine Marchand

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Re: Bach's Bungalow
« Reply #317 on: July 31, 2011, 12:38:53 PM »
Well, I guess that the singer is impersonating Judas and his thoughts. To me, the solo violin is kinda Augenmusik for and also sounding like a soul in despair, who doesn't know which way to go.
I hear rage in it, too, probably because Judas is bitterly infuriated about his wrong decision to betray his friend and master. He's singing this after his suicide, he's dead now .... which really makes him a 'lost son'.
I don't hear a so-called 'positive' mood in this music. I think it's just because much baroque music is written in dance-style that nowadays people think many pieces are sounding like 'good fun'. But for the churchgoers in Bach's time things were probably easier to understand.

I disagree, Marc.

It's clear for me that the “speaker” of this bass aria is not Judas, as you think. As you have recalled, the Evangelist says in the previous number: “And he threw the silver pieces into the temple/ Departed, went away and hanged himself”. The Evangelist naturally speaks about Judas in third person and it would be absurd if Judas appeared, when he was died, as a sort of voice from the beyond.

IMO, the imperious bass voice -- I liked the adjective “heroic” used by Don -- represents the faithful believer, who demands the freedom of Jesus with music of decided and demanding character. I don't really hear "desperation" here, just the imperious order from who knows the Judah's prophecies fulfilled by the betrayal of “the lost son” (Judas).

As I don’t read German, it has been useful for me (and I suppose for the ocassional reader of this thread) to read the English text of this aria:

Quote
42. Aria [Bass]
Violino solo, Violino I/II, Viola, Continuo

Gebt mir meinen Jesum wieder!
Give me back my Jesus!
Seht, das Geld, den Mörderlohn,
See, the money, the wages of murder,
Wirft euch der verlorne Sohn
Is thrown by the lost son
Zu den Füßen nieder!
Down at your feet!

And this is the previous recitative:

Quote
41c. Recitative [Tenor, Bass I, Bass II]
Continuo Evangelist (T), Hohepriester (B.I B.II)

Evangelist:
Und er warf die Silberlinge in den Tempel,
And he threw the silver pieces into the temple
hub sich davon, ging hin und erhängete sich selbst.
Departed, went away and hanged himself.
Aber die Hohenpriester nahmen die Silberlinge und sprachen:
But the chief priests took the silver pieces and said:

Hohepriester:
Es taugt nicht, dass wir sie in den Gotteskasten legen, denn es ist Blutgeld.
It is not proper to put the money in the holy Treasury, since it is blood money.

I don't pretend to present any argument of authority, but people as Albert Schweitzer (I’m reading his book on Bach, recommended by Premont), also sees an intriguing character in this bass aria:

Quote
One would have thought that the most pressing duty of aesthetics was to study these latest discoveries, searching in them for light on the basic problem of all music, — the question of the nature of thematic invention. The attraction was truly great enough, for one had only to read through five or six volumes of tjie cantatas to be struck, more than happens in the case of any other music, by certain recurring singularities, inner affinities, variants of the same theme, and some inexplicable bizarreries. What an enigma is offered us by the themes of the St. Matthew Passion alone! Think of the joyous writing in Judah's air of contrition, "Gebt mir meinen Jesum wieder", ("Give me my dear Lord beloved"); of the wild two-part flute accompaniment in the bass arioso "Ja freilich will in uns das Fleisch und Blut zum Kreuz gezwungen sein", ("Aye, surely now can flesh and blood atone"); of the shapelessness — so senseless from the musical point of view — of the theme of the aria "Konnen Tranen meiner Wangen nichts erlangen", ("Though in vain be all my wailing"); of the remarkable affinity between certain ariosos and the arias that follow them, — in short, of all the things that surprise the musician the more he studies the work, that become, to his sorrow, more and more inexplicable to him, and which he does not know how to perform, for the meaning of them is unknown to him, until he guesses that this music is not self-existent, but has sprung from some strong external force, that will not obey the laws of harmonious thematic structure.

This issue also was discussed in the Bach-cantatas site and different people also gets a perception of pride and even a sort of strange joy (heroic character?) from this aria: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/VD/BWV244-Part6.htm

So I think this aria presents, at least, some oddity in its composition.

Antoine Marchand

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Re: Bach's Bungalow
« Reply #318 on: July 31, 2011, 12:55:57 PM »
I don't hear the 'bit disturbing' problems, to be honest, not even with the score at hand. I think it's a great interpretation.
The Butt performance is interpeting this aria as a piece of sadness and regrets. It's a valuable choice, but I personally prefer the despair and rage combination, as I argued before.

Interesting topic.  Overall, I've felt for a long time that some of Bach's instrumental music doesn't exactly line up with the text, that the music is much less negative in mood than the text.  That's how I feel about the referenced bass aria.  Although the text is certainly in the rage and despair mode, I don't hear music that expresses those emotions.  Yes, the singer can inject a degree of despair through his vocal expressions, but I find the general musical mood to have an heroic character.

Well, I also like Koopman's interpretation, that's the reason why I posted that video.

But I feel some lack of adjustment between the attitude and words of Mertens and the playing of the violinist. And for that reason I have also quoted here the message written by Don. Because probably that lack of adjustment comes from the score itself and Koopman represents exactly the music, without to pretend -- as Butt, for instance -- to make uniform singing and music into a general mood of sadness and regrets.

Offline Marc

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Re: Bach's Bungalow
« Reply #319 on: July 31, 2011, 06:59:49 PM »
I disagree, Marc.

It's clear for me that the “speaker” of this bass aria is not Judas, as you think. As you have recalled, the Evangelist says in the previous number: “And he threw the silver pieces into the temple/ Departed, went away and hanged himself”. The Evangelist naturally speaks about Judas in third person and it would be absurd if Judas appeared, when he was died, as a sort of voice from the beyond.

IMO, the imperious bass voice -- I liked the adjective “heroic” used by Don -- represents the faithful believer, who demands the freedom of Jesus with music of decided and demanding character. I don't really hear "desperation" here, just the imperious order from who knows the Judah's prophecies fulfilled by the betrayal of “the lost son” (Judas).

I understand. And I'm convinced it's a totally valid interpretation.

About my own thoughts: maybe 'impersonating' isn't the right word. I didn't mean the singer was literally Judas, but trying, as the singer in f.i. 'Erbarme dich' with Petrus, to identify with his feelings. Hoping (wishfull thinking by a soul in agony) that returning the money and taking his own sinner's life could probably enlarge the chance of a reconciliation between Jesus (the 'Leader of the Pack') and his pupil (Judas, the 'Lost Son'). Like the reconciliation between the father and his son in the parable of the lost son.

[....]
I don't pretend to present any argument of authority, but people as Albert Schweitzer (I’m reading his book on Bach, recommended by Premont), also sees an intriguing character in this bass aria.
[....]

This issue also was discussed in the Bach-cantatas site and different people also gets a perception of pride and even a sort of strange joy (heroic character?) from this aria: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/VD/BWV244-Part6.htm

So I think this aria presents, at least, some oddity in its composition.

Maybe not oddity, but, as you wrote before, an intriguing character. Which is quite 'normal' with Bach. :)
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