All other composers are inferior to Beethoven

[max]

  Yes it is quite astonishing that Mahler said "there was only Beethoven and Wagner..." the respect he must have had for these two composers in certainly noteworthy and the influence both Beethoven and  Wagner had on him is undeniable.  I seriously doubt based on his quote that Mahler thought Wagner inferior to Beethoven! 

  Going back to the title of this thread, all other composers are inferior to Beethoven (I just can't quit this thread as I find it awfully disturbing), what of Brahms?  No one has come to Brahms' defence  . Sure, much like Wagner he too stood on Beethoven's shoulders and I would very much like to hear from Brahms experts what they thought of Brahms' contributions to Western music vis-a-vis it being "inferior to Beethoven"- which I seriously doubt!  I ask this as I am relatively new to Brahms and find his "conservative romanticism" quite appealing! and that says alot seeing as how I am a diehard Wagnerian!

  marvin     
   

In pure - if you can call it that - 19th century terms the two halves were dominated by B & W. Having said that, the sound bistros of Brahms and Berlioz have a flavor just as unique as the two anointed ones! 0:) Also, Wagner had more competition than Beethoven who had the field mostly to himself...EXCEPT for Schubert - though it wasn't noticed at the time - but whose choral works, sonatas and quartets easily stand comparison to Beethoven's own.

But poor Wagner, he had to put up allot more from others with what he himself possessed namely genius in spades! Wagner did not have an inferiority complex [yes! I know an oxymoron] but why was it that certain names were never allowed to be mentioned in the Wagner household?

Nevertheless, who else could be 'Master & Commander' in the 2nd half of the 19th century based on works like Tristan, the Ring and Parsifal which in Drama and sound are tinged with Buddhistic urges toward resolution à la Schopenhauer completely in character with Wagner's own. It compelled music into a yearning and redemption mode incorporating an awareness in advance of Jung and Freud. The Last Four Songs of Strauss and the Lieder of Mahler come to mind. Even Bruckner - whom I regard as 2nd to NONE - experienced that same kind of revelation in Wagner's music but music only not the drama itself which seemed to be beyond Bruckner's interest or comprehension. In this sense Bruckner was the opposite of Wagner for to him drama was the vessel which contained the music while to Bruckner music existed only as a hymn to the greater glory of God and the Mass was the drama if any were needed.

What was unresolved in Wagner's Parsifal, Tristan and even Götterdämmerung was resolved in Bruckner's 8th an 9th symphonies, at least that's how I 'hear' that relationship. There couldn't be a more glorious response to Wagner's unresolved yearnings. They both permeate space and time, the question and its resolution.

As for Beethoven! There is very little I hear in him that I don't also hear in Wagner only in a more extended dramatic psychologically permeated form. After all, he DID grind myth and legend into music which is a far more intense experience than reincarnating another Shakespeare play into opera. In short, I can't hear one to the exclusion of the other.

...and when it comes down 'only and merely' to the sublime of the 1st order, both B & W have their equals in Brahms and Berlioz.

[Mark G. Simon]

It is interesting that as of today, the "Composer Elimination Game" has narrowed the field down to five composers, and these five composers just happen to be the names which are almost universally held to be the greatest in classical music. Of course Beethoven is one of them.

So save this select handful of composers, it is pretty safe to say that "All other composers are inferior to Beethoven".

But what of it? All other mountains are smaller than Everest. All other oceans are smaller than the Pacific. This is actually a pretty banal premise for a thread.

And it doesn't change the fact that there are many other tall mountains to climb or admire (or whatever one feels like doing with mountains).  Their majesty remains undiminished.

[uffeviking]

Wonderful post, Mark! 

This thread is just one of many other totally useless ones cluttering up GMG, a classical music forum for the discussion, not banal comparisons.

[jwinter]

Guys, consider renting a sense of humor if you don't own one .  Dave was being flip when he started this way back on page one.  Not to put words in his mouth, but I imagine that he did it to get a rise out of people, and to try to start a little conversation on a slow day.  A pretty successful thread by those standards, I think, even if it doesn't tell us a heck of a lot about Beethoven.

[Xenophanes]

Yes they are, and I would say the same for Bach and Mozart.

[Anne]

Beethoven has lost out to Bach and Brahms.  It will all be over shortly.

[jochanaan]

Beethoven has lost out to Bach and Brahms.  It will all be over shortly.

They're both losing to Bruckner and Mahler.

[MN Dave]

Guys, consider renting a sense of humor if you don't own one .  Dave was being flip when he started this way back on page one.  Not to put words in his mouth, but I imagine that he did it to get a rise out of people, and to try to start a little conversation on a slow day.  A pretty successful thread by those standards, I think, even if it doesn't tell us a heck of a lot about Beethoven.

Indeed.