All other composers are inferior to Beethoven

[marvinbrown]

Actually, I mis-typed.  The Tristan chord itself does not occur in Liszt's song Ich möchte hingehn, but except for the D# being a D in the first chord, the notes in one bar of the song are exactly the same as in bars 2-3 of the Tristan prelude.  (Information from Harold C. Schonberg, The Great Conductors.)

And I hadn't known about the Mozart occurrence!  Thanks.  I suspect that the chord itself occurred many times before Wagner chose to put it in such a prominent position.

  Thank you Jochanaan, I learned something new today from you.  Thank you for your intelligent posts and for bringing me back into this thread  . 

  marvin

[lukeottevanger]

Actually, I mis-typed.  The Tristan chord itself does not occur in Liszt's song Ich möchte hingehn, but except for the D# being a D in the first chord, the notes in one bar of the song are exactly the same as in bars 2-3 of the Tristan prelude.  (Information from Harold C. Schonberg, The Great Conductors.)

That's interesting - I was unaware of that. Liszt prefigures the general idea of the Tristan chord in the third book of Annees (opening of Aux cypres de la Villa d'Este II), but, the chord itself being different, the effect, whilst impressive, is much less subtle - it doesn't have that entirely new sense of 'endless yearning' that Wagner obtains.

And I hadn't known about the Mozart occurrence!  Thanks.  I suspect that the chord itself occurred many times before Wagner chose to put it in such a prominent position.

Mozart's resolution is actually very similar to Wagner's, but of course he glides over it, doesn't spotlight it, so one is hardly aware of it.

I also remember my friend the composer Huw Watkins once bounding up to my room at university to tell me in 'great [mock] excitement' that he had discovered that the Spice Girls new single (this was in 1996) had a Tristan chord in it.  He proceeded to play it to me - a very convincing demonstration, and the best the Spice Girls have ever sounded, I am sure, though I imagine their harmonisation was slightly less interesting than his.

[Operahaven]

One needn't argue that Wagner is inferior to Beethoven; it's self evident.

Self-evident ?

Do you seriously believe that Wagner's finest music cannot stand alongside Beethoven's ?

Excuse me, but his best music is among the most sublime ever written...

[longears]

Self-evident ?

Do you seriously believe that Wagner's finest music cannot stand alongside Beethoven's ?

Excuse me, but his best music is among the most sublime ever written...

Not even close.  Your praise should clinch the argument, Eric.  You and music are like George Costanza and life choices.

[max]

Beethoven and Wagner the two greatest composers of the 19th century and still not equalled. There is Nothing 'self-evident' about who is greater! One thing is self-evident that listening to classical music DOES NOT make one smarter.

For me, I'll gladly take one of each instead of two of the same!

[Operahaven]

Not even close.  Your praise should clinch the argument, Eric.  You and music are like George Costanza and life choices.

Son, you really need to get over your prejudice and open your heart to the superlative beauty and power of Wagner...

Just a suggestion; we'll leave it there.

[lukeottevanger]

Beethoven and Wagner the two greatest composers of the 19th century and still not equalled...

Still not? But don't count your chickens - another 19th century composer who equals them could spring up at any time....

[BachQ]

Still not? But don't count your chickens - another 19th century composer who equals them could spring up at any time....

Is that how it works?  Composers just "spring up" ? .........

[(poco) Sforzando]

Is that how it works?  Composers just "spring up" ? .........

Ya never heard of the "Rite of Spring Up"?

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Ya never heard of the "Rite of Spring Up"?

No composer after Beethoven and Wagner has the right to spring up.

(Just joking.)

[Harry]

No composer after Beethoven and Wagner has the right to spring up.

(Just joking.)

I am not!

[Haffner]

  Thank you Jochanaan, I learned something new today from you.  Thank you for your intelligent posts and for bringing me back into this thread  . 

  marvin

Marvin, I too am hugely "into" Richard Wagner's life and especially his works. So I'm always really happy to have you on any thread!

[Haffner]

No composer after Beethoven and Wagner has the right to spring up.

(Just joking.)

Gustav Mahler (one of the handful of composers since Wagner and Beethoven whom often came close to their level) would have agreed.

[marvinbrown]

Gustav Mahler (one of the handful of composers since Wagner and Beethoven whom often came close to their level) would have agreed.

  Yes it is quite astonishing that Mahler said "there was only Beethoven and Wagner..." the respect he must have had for these two composers in certainly noteworthy and the influence both Beethoven and  Wagner had on him is undeniable.  I seriously doubt based on his quote that Mahler thought Wagner inferior to Beethoven! 

  Going back to the title of this thread, all other composers are inferior to Beethoven (I just can't quit this thread as I find it awfully disturbing), what of Brahms?  No one has come to Brahms' defence  . Sure, much like Wagner he too stood on Beethoven's shoulders and I would very much like to hear from Brahms experts what they thought of Brahms' contributions to Western music vis-a-vis it being "inferior to Beethoven"- which I seriously doubt!  I ask this as I am relatively new to Brahms and find his "conservative romanticism" quite appealing! and that says alot seeing as how I am a diehard Wagnerian!

  marvin

     
   

[longears]

No one is coming to Brahms's defense because with one or two exceptions everyone recognizes that this thread is not to be taken seriously.  Its heading is a joke, intentionally making fun of those who earnestly claim that Wagner or Mahler or Elgar or Hoagy Carmichael is numero uno anywhere but in their hearts.  Of course Brahms was a great 19th Century composer.  There were others, too!

None of them hold a candle to Beethoven, however.... 

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

None of them hold a candle to Beethoven, however.... 

Getting serious, longears? 

[longears]

Getting serious, longears? 

I'm feeling all warm and fuzzy inside...it's nice to be appreciated.  Rock on, dude!

[marvinbrown]

No one is coming to Brahms's defense because with one or two exceptions everyone recognizes that this thread is not to be taken seriously.  Its heading is a joke, intentionally making fun of those who earnestly claim that Wagner or Mahler or Elgar or Hoagy Carmichael is numero uno anywhere but in their hearts.  Of course Brahms was a great 19th Century composer.  There were others, too!

None of them hold a candle to Beethoven, however.... 

  Likewise making fun of those who actually believe that Beethoven is superior to all others  !

  marvin

[jochanaan]

...None of them hold a candle to Beethoven, however.... 

But they may have held a canon to his head. (No, that's not a typo, nor a Type-O. )

[max]

But they may have held a canon to his head. (No, that's not a typo, nor a Type-O. )

I think he would have heard that!