Topic: My question has still not been answered

[Madiel]

So I’m asking again: who deleted Gurn’s posts? Was it Gurn or was it someone else?

You have now gone and closed my thread asking about this after other people took it in a different direction, WITHOUT answering the question. I didn’t ask about coffee’s thread being closed. I asked about Gurn’s posts on that thread. Posts that I reported, though of course as is the GMG way my report is also deleted.

The whole matter of accountability of moderators around here is not improved by not answering a direct question about accountability.

And now I guess you can also tell me who closed my thread without answering the question.

[Mirror Image]

What I've learned is it's okay for a moderator to write however negatively they want in response to one of your posts, but the minute you give them the push back YOU are the one who is negative.

Anyway, you can expect this thread to also be shutdown.

[JBS]

1)The lack of an answer may be the answer.
2) I didn't participate in the original thread because I felt it would end up as a hot mess. It, and the second thread, ended up even hotter and messier than I expected. So I can't blame the mods for shutting them down.
3)I never saw the posts you were referring to. But I would ask the mods to answer you by DM.
 

[Madiel]

1)The lack of an answer may be the answer.
2) I didn't participate in the original thread because I felt it would end up as a hot mess. It, and the second thread, ended up even hotter and messier than I expected. So I can't blame the mods for shutting them down.
3)I never saw the posts you were referring to. But I would ask the mods to answer you by DM.

I’m not querying the shutting down. The issue has to do with a mod’s behaviour and what accountability there is for it.

The idea that a mod gets to tell a poster that they contribute nothing (clearly not accurate) and ought to leave the forum is pretty significant. Even if it’s just the moderator’s personal opinion, it comes with the moderator title attached to it. And I found it rather alarming.

“The mods” can answer me by DM if they wish, but I expect an answer. I realise that GMG likes to delete posts in an attempt to act as if something didn’t happen, but my chief interest is whether it was the mod who behaved in an alarming manner who also got to delete the evidence of how they behaved, or whether other mods held them accountable.

Similarly, there is a difference between some other moderator closing my first question down after people sniping at each other, and the moderator I am asking about closing it down in order to evade questions.

If moderators here are going to continue to take the view that it’s appropriate to delete material or close threads, okay, but in my view it would be far better to actually speak about it rather than do it completely silently, and particularly in this situation where I’m left wondering whether it’s a cover-up.

[Mirror Image]

You should know by now that moderators are never held accountable for anything they write in their posts. For them, we are public enemy number one.

[Spotted Horses]

It seems to me that the moderators are being held to an unreasonable standard, that is contrary to the official policy of the board as stated by the board owner. They are not paid staff, they are regular members who have volunteered their time to help with management of the forum and they do not forfeit their right to participate as any other member can.

I quote from the GMG forum Guidelines.

Also note that the Moderators are also regular members of the forum, and as such can post on the forum as any other regular member. This includes threads about religion, social issues and comments about the forum itself. Their posts and views carry no extra weight than any other members'.

https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,5.0.html

They have a thankless, unpaid, difficult and time consuming job which, at times, entails dealing uncivil and belligerent behavior on the forum. I, for one, am grateful for their service.

[Madiel]

It seems to me that the moderators are being held to an unreasonable standard, that is contrary to the official policy of the board as stated by the board owner. They are not paid staff, they are regular members who have volunteered their time to help with management of the forum and they do not forfeit their right to participate as any other member can.

I quote from the GMG forum Guidelines.

https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,5.0.html

They have a thankless, unpaid, difficult and time consuming job which, at times, entails dealing uncivil and belligerent behavior on the forum. I, for one, am grateful for their service.

What is unreasonable about thinking it’s inappropriate for a moderator to say that someone is contributing nothing and should leave?

I don’t think it’s particularly appropriate for ANYONE to be saying that. But especially not a moderator.

Again, I didn’t ask questions about the closure. My concern is whether or not a moderator used moderator powers to cover up their own inappropriate behaviour, because that is NOT what moderator powers are for. Dealing with uncivil and belligerent behaviour is not a licence for BEING uncivil and belligerent.

If some other moderator agreed with me that the posts were inappropriate, had a word with the relevant person, and deleted the posts, then fine. But as things stand I don’t know which scenario is the one that played out. Hence my question.

[Spotted Horses]

What is unreasonable about thinking it’s inappropriate for a moderator to say that someone is contributing nothing and should leave?

I don’t think it’s particularly appropriate for ANYONE to be saying that. But especially not a moderator.

Again, I didn’t ask questions about the closure. My concern is whether or not a moderator used moderator powers to cover up their own inappropriate behaviour, because that is NOT what moderator powers are for. Dealing with uncivil and belligerent behaviour is not a licence for BEING uncivil and belligerent.

Any member can regret a post and decide to delete it, including a moderator.

I did not participate in the thread, which became toxic basically from the first reply. Looking at the thread a a few times I saw numerous posts that obviously violated standards and merited deletion and I assume that the moderators made a decision that thread created a workload for moderators which was not sustainable or justified.

[Madiel]

Any member can regret a post and decide to delete it, including a moderator.

The post that initially shocked me was up for several days.

I said nothing until the sentiment was repeated.

As well as reporting the 2 posts, I stated that I was reporting them and why. That post of mine has also been deleted.

The upshot is that I have no acknowledgement that the posts WERE regretted or that anyone agreed they were inappropriate. And that’s my problem. I can't tell whether the posts were deleted through sincere regret, or through a desire to not be found out by other moderators looking at the thread after my report.

This is what happens when decisions are not explained.

[DavidW]

Madiel, I guess I don't understand.  You reported his posts and then they were deleted.  Isn't that what you wanted?  Why does it matter who specifically deleted them?  You held a mod accountable and they were. 

[Brian]

Can I offer a compromise position?

Our mods are generally wonderful, and in fact the reason that they are the mods in the first place is that they are some of the kindest, most helpful, most mature people on this board. They are not bullies and they do not think the forum users are the enemy.

But - and I did not see the post(s) being discussed here, and do not know what they said or who they were about - telling a user that they should quit the forum is pretty extreme language I have not enjoyed seeing from ordinary users. From a moderator, that kind of language carries extra weight. Even if it's not meant to be Official, the reader could imagine that it is.

The proper way for this to have been handled would have been for the moderator to delete the post, write a new post saying something like "I've removed a post that went against our standards," and apologize to the person in question privately.

At the same time, I feel like this could have all been sorted out by PM. And there is no need to publicly say when you have reported a post. I have reported posts before and they are usually handled very quickly, especially considering that these are volunteers who lead active lives.

(EDIT: I am told by other witnesses that "they ought to leave the forum" is not something any of the mods said in that thread. I retract the above, and suggest again that this could all be sorted out by friendly PM.)

[DavidW]

At the same time, I feel like this could have all been sorted out by PM. And there is no need to publicly say when you have reported a post. I have reported posts before and they are usually handled very quickly, especially considering that these are volunteers who lead active lives.

I have a feeling that it was sorted by PM.  I don't feel that the accusations on this thread are entirely honest.  The mods have been doing this job for twenty years or so.  They know what they're doing, and compared to other forums they take a pretty subtle and fair approach.

[Madiel]

I don't feel that the accusations on this thread are entirely honest.

Gee thanks. My whole issue here is about integrity and now mine is under question. How marvellous.

I of course cannot quote the deleted posts to verify what they said. I can only report the reaction I had to them.

Brian has in fact hit upon exactly what I wanted to happen, and pretty much what I think should happen a hell of a lot more fucking often around here: SOME KIND OF RECORD OF MODERATOR ACTION. Because what typically happens is that moderators say nothing at all about what they’ve done.

That’s not “subtle”, that’s a problem. They regularly do not provide a PM, they leave people to guess. I think I’ve had a PM about a situation a couple of times, but the number of times one discovers whole chunks of posts have been deleted or moved with no notice? Way more.

We now have the fascinating situation that people are accepting that posts were deleted (apparently we have “witnesses” to that) while simultaneously casting doubt on my assertion that the posts were bad enough to be deleted. Great, eh?

[Madiel]

(EDIT: I am told by other witnesses that "they ought to leave the forum" is not something any of the mods said in that thread. I retract the above, and suggest again that this could all be sorted out by friendly PM.)

Well don’t retract it. Gurn said it to Mirror Image pretty darn clearly. The fact that “other witnesses” didn’t see it means… what? There’s a post they didn’t read? I read it. Unless they can tell you what Gurn actually said to Mirror Image in the deleted posts you’re simply reporting an absence of witness. And who non-witnessed these things anyway?

Do “other witnesses” think I’m talking about telling coffee (the person who started the thread) to leave? Because I’m not.

I am totally on board with what you said. It’s not really a compromise position, because it’s what I wanted.

[Madiel]

Madiel, I guess I don't understand.  You reported his posts and then they were deleted.  Isn't that what you wanted?  Why does it matter who specifically deleted them?  You held a mod accountable and they were.

Briefly coming back to this to say that no, I never asked for the posts to be deleted. What I wanted was the attitude to be dealt with. There’s a big difference.

Deleting posts often doesn’t do much about the ideas behind them. And that’s pretty much my problem in general with the mods oft-used tactic of deleting posts without doing anything else. The posts were still made and the thoughts that generated them often still exist.

In this particular case, the thought was expressed twice a number of days apart which makes it that much harder to believe it was a temporary moment of hot-headedness.