Debussy's Corner

[Madiel]

Both of those are still kicking around, I've got notes about them both on my shopping list.

[Scion7]

But not in those vinyl editions!  Unless you go to the used shoppes or eBay or some such.  But, yes, they are on CD issues.

While the Chung/Lupu is quite nice, if you have not yet purchased it, the Midori/McDonald set on Sony would be my choice first over theirs. And the Suk/Panenka is a given.    0:)

[James]

What Debussy called the 'beautiful nightmare' of Stravinsky's Rite would never have been possible without the harmonic freedom of the Frenchman's earlier works. But in realising Debussy's orchestral ideal, Jeux had lessons for the radical post-war generation of composers in its fluidity of form. Rather than using form for unity and integration, Debussy's score explores discontinuity, with more than 60 changes of tempo, motifs in constant flux and ever-changing orchestral colours – and yet there is an almost invisible coherence.

Like Pinocchio, Jeux quietly unlocked the door to the way that later composers put their music together like a collage. This can be heard in Messiaen's mature works, while Stockhausen praised Jeux as the crucial step towards the 'moment form' that underpinned many of his pieces, a sentiment echoed by Ligeti. As Boulez put it, 'the general organisation of [Jeux] is as changeable instant by instant as it is homogeneous in development'.

[ritter]

A couple of days, Todd alerted us of an André Cluytens mega-box that will be released next June:

[asin]B06XST7GHS[/asin]

And some years ago, we were discussing "complete" versions of Le Martyre de Saint-Sébastien on this thread.

Are there any complete recordings of "Le martyre de saint Sébastien" available?  We seemingly always listen to recordings of the Orchestral Suites or fragments of the work? I understand that the full work actually is very long (five hours according to a Monteux booklet!!). Is that correct or a misprint?  Does anybody know if there is an accessible full recorded version out there?   The booklet I have states that Monteux at one point recorded the full score with the London SO, but does not mention a date? I cannot find such a full version in the Monteux discographies that I have researched so far. Is that recording available anywhere?

Well, I think the explanation for this is that, performed in it's entirety as a play, Le Martyre should be rather long. AFAIK, there's no modern recording of the whole thing (i.e., all the music and all the spoken text). When we get complete versions of the piece, I think they're complete (or nearly so) as far as the music is concerned, with the text substituted by narration (that's the case for Inghelbrecht live on Montaigne, MTT, Ansermet, Boulez live on Col Legno, Mercier on RCA--of the versions in my collection). There was an old Cluytens recording on French Columbia, never transferred to CD and which I've never heard--but did see in a familiy friend's collection many years ago--, which spanned 3 LPs; I suppose this is a close as a recorded version ever came to what the original concept of Le Martyre was (but even here the text is abriged)...



A French language forum (unkonwn to me until now) discsussed this some time ago. One poster sums the Cluytens up in this classic line: "J'ai aussi la version Cluytens, belle oubliée, mais l'overdose de texte parlé devient vite indigeste". More info here

The cast is the following:

Debussy, Le Martyre de Saint-Sébastien (version abrégée par Véra Korène), Véra Korène (Le Saint), Henriette Barreau (La Mère douloureuse), Jean Marchat (L'Empereur), Rita Gohr [sic], Solange Michel (Les Gémeaux), Jacques Eyser (Le Préfet), Martha Angelici (La voix de la vierge Erigone), Maria Casarès (La fille malade des fièvres), Mattiwilda Dobbs (Vox Coelestis), Jacqueline Brumaire (Vox Sola), Paul Guers (Sanaé), Lucienne Jourfier (Anima Sebastiani), Choeurs Raymond Saint-Paul, Orchestre National de la Radiodiffusion Française, André Cluytens (vers 1952)

Some inetersting and intriguing names here (Maria Casarès among  the actresses, soprano Mattiwilda Dobbs). But one poster in that forum states that there are 15 minutes spans in the recording of all talk and no music. 

Well, looking at the contents of the Cluytens box on French Amazon (see the pictures with the contents of the 67 discs), it seems that this Martyre has finally been transfrred to CD. Of course, you get an additional 65 CDs of all sorts of muic, but in any case this set looks very interestng (and I myself have precious little Cluytens in my collection--not even the highly-praised Beethoven symphony cycle).

The performance has since also been made available on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/v/YNnjJo2NR-A

[Mirror Image]

Composition Spotlight:

Debussy's Jeux



Information:

Jeux     133/(126)
Ballet in 1 act, poème dansé by Nijinsky

Composition dates:
August 1912 - End April 1913

Dedication:
Madame Jacques Durand

Publication:
Piano redution, Durand, April 1913; orchestra, pocket edition, Durand, December 1913; orchestra, May 1914; 1988, Édition critique des œuvres complètes, V/8
Nomenclature:
4.4.4.4 — 4.4.3.1 — timp. - 3 perc. - cél. - 2 harps — strings

First hearing:
Paris, 15 May 1913, first performance at Théâtre des Champs-Élysées, by Serge de Diaghilev's Ballets Russes, under the direction of Pierre Monteux, scenery and costumes by Léon Bakst; Vaslav Nijinsky (young man), Tamara Karsavina (first young lady), Ludmilla Schollar (second young lady)
Paris, 1st March 1914, Concerts Colonne, under the direction of Gabriel Pierné

Comments:
Diaghilev asked Debussy to make the end of Jeux "a little longer". Debussy completed the piano reduction on 12 September 1912, and wrote the orchestration in April 1913.

[Information taken from Debussy's website: http:www.debussy.fr]

Background:

It is doubtful that any theatre has experienced a more remarkable few weeks than the newly opened Théâtre des Champs-Elysées, Paris in May 1913. It was the scene on 29 May of the most notorious premiere of them all: Stravinsky's Rite of Spring, the hoopla surrounding which overshadowed two rather different works.

The first Parisian performance of Fauré's sublime only opera, Pénélope, was given on 10 May, two days before the composer's 68th birthday. Five days later, Diaghilev's Ballets Russes unveiled a work with what turned out to be the last completed orchestral music by Debussy: Jeux. This 'poème dansé' has come to be seen as equally important as the Rite in its own way, but being eclipsed by the reception of Stravinsky's tour de force was just one factor among many working against Jeux getting a good start.

It took the best part of 40 years for the significance of Jeux to be recognised. While Stravinsky's advances grab you by the throat, and Schoenberg's expressionist works scream their angst, Jeux is understated and suffused with light. It's chromatic, yet never harsh; rhythmically complex, yet fleet-footed and graceful. Analysing it is like trying to capture wisps of mist.

What Debussy called the 'beautiful nightmare' of Stravinsky's Rite would never have been possible without the harmonic freedom of the Frenchman's earlier works. But in realising Debussy's orchestral ideal, Jeux had lessons for the radical post-war generation of composers in its fluidity of form. Rather than using form for unity and integration, Debussy's score explores discontinuity, with more than 60 changes of tempo, motifs in constant flux and ever-changing orchestral colours – and yet there is an almost invisible coherence.

Like Pinocchio, Jeux quietly unlocked the door to the way that later composers put their music together like a collage. This can be heard in Messiaen's mature works, while Stockhausen praised Jeux as the crucial step towards the 'moment form' that underpinned many of his pieces, a sentiment echoed by Ligeti. As Boulez put it, 'the general organisation of [Jeux] is as changeable instant by instant as it is homogeneous in development'.

The title mirrors the ambiguities of the scenario, in which a boy and two girls are searching for a tennis ball, but embark on other games, firstly childish, then more amorous. Boulez has described Jeux as 'The Afternoon of a faun in sports clothes', reflecting the musical affinity Jeux has with Debussy's early masterpiece and the ballet's echoes of the nymphs chasing the faun in Vaslav Nijinsky's choreography for Prélude à l'après-midi d'un faune, produced in May 1912. One month later, Debussy was persuaded to write a new work for the Ballets Russes. He was initially reluctant, a telegram to Diaghilev stating bluntly 'Subject ballet Jeux idiotic, not interested', but a doubling of the fee (and the shelving of Nijinsky's idea for a plane crash near the end) evidently prompted a change of heart.

Once committed, Debussy wrote the initial draft of Jeux at uncommon speed, in about a month from July to August 1912, telling André Caplet that he needed 'to find an orchestra "without feet" for this music'. Debussy refused to let Diaghilev and Nijinsky hear his work in progress, 'not wishing these barbarians to poke their noses into my experiments in personal chemistry!' He later came to view his caution as well-founded, telling Gabriel Pierné that Nijinsky 'with his cruel and barbarous choreography... trampled my poor rhythms underfoot like weed'.

In Nijinsky's defense, it is worth remembering that he did not hear the orchestral score until late in the day. While the piano duet version of the Rite gives a good flavour of this most percussive of ballets, Jeux on piano is far removed from Debussy's diaphanous orchestral textures. Matters were not helped by the frantic preparations for the Rite swallowing up rehearsal time. To compound it all, one of the three dancers for Jeux, Nijinsky's sister Bronislava, discovered she was pregnant just before the premiere.

The premiere of Jeux provoked no riot, no scandal of the sort that accompanied Nijinsky's choreography for Prélude à l'après-midi d'un faune, and certainly not bouquets and plaudits. Rather, there was bemusement about the dancing, while the music seemed barely to be noticed at all. Now, such indifference has been replaced by recognition of a work that epitomises the word sublime. Listening to Jeux, as the hesitant opening bars are interrupted by those indescribable chords opening a door to another universe, how did those sitting in the Théâtre des Champs-Elysées nearly a century ago fail to realise that Debussy's games were very special indeed?

[Article taken from BBC Music Magazine]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'd love to know what you guys think Debussy meant by this work or what you think it's trying to convey? I'll have to sit back and think about this myself as it's been a work I've been trying to become more and more familiar through the years, but only other music has gotten in the way. Do you think it's as innovative as Stravinsky's Le sacre which it seemed to overshadow at the time? Would love to hear from my fellow Debussyians.

[Mahlerian]

I'd love to know what you guys think Debussy meant by this work or what you think it's trying to convey? I'll have to sit back and think about this myself as it's been a work I've been trying to become more and more familiar through the years, but only other music has gotten in the way. Do you think it's as innovative as Stravinsky's Le sacre which it seemed to overshadow at the time? Would love to hear from my fellow Debussyians.

Jeux seems to me to be the most extreme work in Debussy's output in terms of extended form.  Motifs materialize and then vanish before reforming again and again in waves of playful ecstasy.  Its use of timbre is brilliant, naturally, and only serves to underline the radical nature of the work's structure.  I've never really thought of it primarily in terms of Nijinsky's scenario, and find it completely successful as a concert piece without any such scaffolding.

In that way, yes, it's just as innovative as The Rite of Spring, and as fresh today as anything in Debussy's oeuvre, even if its premiere wasn't accompanied by any kind of scandal.

[Mirror Image]

Jeux seems to me to be the most extreme work in Debussy's output in terms of extended form.  Motifs materialize and then vanish before reforming again and again in waves of playful ecstasy.  Its use of timbre is brilliant, naturally, and only serves to underline the radical nature of the work's structure.  I've never really thought of it primarily in terms of Nijinsky's scenario, and find it completely successful as a concert piece without any such scaffolding.

In that way, yes, it's just as innovative as The Rite of Spring, and as fresh today as anything in Debussy's oeuvre, even if its premiere wasn't accompanied by any kind of scandal.

Thanks for the feedback. The part you mentioned about the work's structure echoes what Boulez said about it (I'll have to see if I can dig up that YouTube video). Have you ever considered doing analysis videos like Samuel Andreyev, Mahlerian? I bet you'd get a lot of subscribers. His channel has become quite popular.

[Mahlerian]

Thanks for the feedback. The part you mentioned about the work's structure echoes what Boulez said about it (I'll have to see if I can dig up that YouTube video).

We all stand on the shoulders of giants, and all that.  Jeux is a marvel.

Have you ever considered doing analysis videos like Samuel Andreyev, Mahlerian? I bet you'd get a lot of subscribers. His channel has become quite popular.

Actually, I am considering that, and I'm a huge fan of Samuel's videos myself.  I respect anyone who can take rigorous analysis and make it accessible.

[snyprrr]

By some stroke I have Martin Jones's Cycle on Nimbus coming,... and,... I'm not sure how to go about even sampling his work. Is there an early correlation with Liszt? Since I'll have everything, including the BalletsDisc, I'm quite curious, THOUGH, I do believe I've tried Debussy in the past and not taken to him. I might have rather enjoyed another Pianist (Beroff comes to mind), and non-Nimbus sound, but... (I didn't particularly care for Bavouzet...)...

My strategy is to start with a lot of the short single pieces...

I'm just not that into Debussy ... ... I'm more of a Satiean


Of course, the 3 Last Sonatas are another story, and the SQ,... I did enjoy the Piano Trio yesterday...

[Mirror Image]

Actually, I am considering that, and I'm a huge fan of Samuel's videos myself.  I respect anyone who can take rigorous analysis and make it accessible.

I don't think he's done any video analysis of Schoenberg yet, so you can beat Mr. Andreyev to the punch! You could also do some Debussy, Berg, and Takemitsu (three other composers he hasn't done yet).

[SurprisedByBeauty]

Latest on Forbes:


Review: Debussy vs. Debussy -
Complete Works By Warner Classics And Deutsche Grammophon Compared


https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2018/03/25/review-debussy-vs-debussy-complete-works-by-warner-and-deutsche-grammophon-compared/#60a1cdcd5e60

Every click helps to convince Forbes that classical music coverage of some sort is worth the bother.

[Madiel]

Latest on Forbes:


Review: Debussy vs. Debussy -
Complete Works By Warner Classics And Deutsche Grammophon Compared


https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2018/03/25/review-debussy-vs-debussy-complete-works-by-warner-and-deutsche-grammophon-compared/#60a1cdcd5e60

Every click helps to convince Forbes that classical music coverage of some sort is worth the bother.

Excellent, thank you...

I'm going to ignore both and go buy the Hyperion songs. 

But it's a very good review. When boxes are so large, they need a decent amount of discussion.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

Excellent, thank you...

I'm going to ignore both and go buy the Hyperion songs. 

But it's a very good review. When boxes are so large, they need a decent amount of discussion.

Well, you're doing right in going the Hyperion way. In fact, I suggest as much in said review:

...but anyone getting a set for the songs, specifically, is far better off with the Warner box or might better still seek out the Hyperion edition of Debussy songs.

[Madiel]

Well, you're doing right in going the Hyperion way. In fact, I suggest as much in said review:

I know. I did read the review. That was the whole point of coming back and mentioning the Hyperion songs.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

I know. I did read the review. That was the whole point of coming back and mentioning the Hyperion songs.

Flattering. (Not everyone reads through the end in anything longer than 500 words, these days.)

(Your "But" in "But it's a very good review..." threw me off to think that you might have missed that half sentence.)

[Madiel]

Flattering. (Not everyone reads through the end in anything longer than 500 words, these days.)

(Your "But" in "But it's a very good review..." threw me off to think that you might have missed that half sentence.)

Ah sorry, no. The "But" merely meant I was not inspired to buy either of the things you were reviewing.

[North Star]

Latest on Forbes:


Review: Debussy vs. Debussy -
Complete Works By Warner Classics And Deutsche Grammophon Compared

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2018/03/25/review-debussy-vs-debussy-complete-works-by-warner-and-deutsche-grammophon-compared/#60a1cdcd5e60

Every click helps to convince Forbes that classical music coverage of some sort is worth the bother.

"...and Charles Dutoit, who really knows how to touch you..."   

In the recording comparisons, I'd note that the DG also has LaSalle's SQ in the bonus section.
I think I need to investigate the Hyperion song series..

[SurprisedByBeauty]

"...and Charles Dutoit, who really knows how to touch you..."   

I'm so happy when someone catches my easter eggs.   

In the recording comparisons, I'd note that the DG also has LaSalle's SQ in the bonus section.

I amended the footnote accordingly! Thanks for the suggestion. (I had not included it initially, since at the point where I mention the quartets in the text, I hadn't mentioned the historical bonus discs yet. But the footnote works well. (Also corrected the links to the footnotes, which don't automatically work on Forbes.)

[Mirror Image]

I'm just not that into Debussy ... ... I'm more of a Satiean

Well, thanks for stopping by.

[Mirror Image]

Latest on Forbes:


Review: Debussy vs. Debussy -
Complete Works By Warner Classics And Deutsche Grammophon Compared


https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2018/03/25/review-debussy-vs-debussy-complete-works-by-warner-and-deutsche-grammophon-compared/#60a1cdcd5e60

Every click helps to convince Forbes that classical music coverage of some sort is worth the bother.

An excellent article, Jens. I very much enjoyed reading it. Unlike you, however, I found Véronique Dietschy to be quite special indeed and her choice of accompanists (whether Cassard or Strosser) are stellar. The Warner set has too many vocalists that I simply don't like with the exceptions of Véronique Gens and Gérard Souzay. I think Warner obviously can claim the title of Complete, but there are just too many transcriptions from other composers/musicians and this goes for arrangements as well that it seems DG is more concerned about the published works. Of course, we very well know that in many instances orchestral works like Khamma and La boîte à joujoux were both left to be orchestrated by Koechlin and Caplet respectively. I can't help feel that many of these orchestral arrangements are useless. Like for example, Collin Matthews' Préludes or Ansermet's Six épigraphes antiques. Both works, for me, sound much better on piano. Talking about this, reminds me of all the orchestrations Ravel did of his own piano works. The original piano scores can't be bettered. In some instances, an orchestration sounds rather good like Caplet's Children's Corner, which I thought was quite tastefully done. Anyway, to end this one breathed rambling nonsense, I heartily endorse the DG set based on the amazing performances and not on 'completeness'.