Debussy's Corner

Started by Kullervo, December 19, 2007, 05:47:00 PM

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North Star

Quote from: snyprrr on May 03, 2018, 09:11:07 AM
I'm tending to think he does, but it has to be the correct, Debussyian, amount (47%??).
Quote from: snyprrr on May 03, 2018, 09:11:07 AM
Don't act like I'm being silly! :laugh:
Trust me, it's no act. But yeah, I agree that a moderate amount of ambiance is good to have in Debussy recordings..
"Everything has beauty, but not everyone sees it." - Confucius

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Baron Scarpia

Quote from: snyprrr on May 03, 2018, 09:11:07 AM
Does Debussy need a certain amount of natural reverberation to be fully realized? Can Debussy be fully realized in a dry studio setting? Don't act like I'm being silly! :laugh:

I'm tending to think he does, but it has to be the correct, Debussyian, amount (47%??).

My preference for recording perspective does not really vary by the character of the music. I like a natural concert-hall-like sound stage with a moderate amount of reverberation. In Debussy I tend to like clarity of articulation, the music itself is atmospheric enough.

Mandryka

#462
Quote from: snyprrr on May 03, 2018, 09:04:54 AM
cuz I'm always wondering what the others are hearing that I'm not.

Perhaps I'm an 'Early Debussy' fan? For some histrionic reason, the Preludes&Etudes shock my sensibilities- I certainly hear the originality of his Visions, but perhaps thought he was more silky smoove like Ravel. Debussy is altogether more all encompassing (like Mahler vs Sibelius??)...


Here's the thing: when I'm listening to the Preludes, I hear this Satie voice in my head making fun of Debussy's pretensions. I mean, Deb was the Priory of Sion, and Satie was Esoteric-

oh, nevermind, I don't know how to continue... it's just that I'm hearing Debussy @1904/5-1913-15 in terms of the greater context, with WWI, with the Debussy-Satie-Ravel falling out, with Les Six, with the Ragtime... all these things... I do find the Etudes somewhat bizarre, yet still "normal" music, Lisztian?

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...maybe it's the way Debussy handles the "grotesque"(out of Prokofiev's "4 characters") that I'm not getting...

or just the rubato?



Obviously, Deb is compelling enough for me to keep searching and listening... maybe he's too ubiquitous and also too myste

Try Pelleas, I mean, it'll do your head in, but try it. Come to Europe and go and see it in Paris or London.  I think the songs are well worth exploring too. The one piano thing I think you should listen to before just forgetting his keyboard music is Jacobs/Kalish En Blanc et Noir, just because they make it so bitter, bitter about the imminent death of Jacobs  -- but it's crap sound. 
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Mandryka

Quote from: snyprrr on May 03, 2018, 09:04:54 AM



Debussy is altogether more all encompassing (like Mahler vs Sibelius??)...





This is an interesting idea.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

snyprrr

Quote from: Mandryka on May 04, 2018, 04:59:34 AM
This is an interesting idea.
more so with Deb and Ravel- Deb is "inclusionary"; Ravel "exclusionary"



HAS ONE HEARD THE STAN. BUNIN DEBUSSY RECITAL????? 'Pour le Piano'...WOW!!!! Preferrable to Kocsis?!!!...

I'm liking Weissenberg...

Moonfish

Quote from: Mandryka on May 03, 2018, 11:10:18 PM
Try Pelleas, I mean, it'll do your head in, but try it. Come to Europe and go and see it in Paris or London.  I think the songs are well worth exploring too. The one piano thing I think you should listen to before just forgetting his keyboard music is Jacobs/Kalish En Blanc et Noir, just because they make it so bitter, bitter about the imminent death of Jacobs  -- but it's crap sound.

Ah, 'Pelléas et Mélisande' is indeed wonderful....!!!
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Anna Lappé

GioCar

Speaking of Pelléas, I recently listened to the Armin Jordan's recording from the Warner box



and it's a very interesting/compelling performance!

Since the only other performance by Jordan senior that I know is the Parsifal, and I like it very much, I'm inclined to think that Armin one of the most underrated conductors in history.

Mirror Image

Quote from: GioCar on May 13, 2018, 01:24:09 AM
Speaking of Pelléas, I recently listened to the Armin Jordan's recording from the Warner box



and it's a very interesting/compelling performance!

Since the only other performance by Jordan senior that I know is the Parsifal, and I like it very much, I'm inclined to think that Armin one of the most underrated conductors in history.

Better than Abbado and Boulez?

Moonfish

Quote from: GioCar on May 13, 2018, 01:24:09 AM
Speaking of Pelléas, I recently listened to the Armin Jordan's recording from the Warner box



and it's a very interesting/compelling performance!

Since the only other performance by Jordan senior that I know is the Parsifal, and I like it very much, I'm inclined to think that Armin one of the most underrated conductors in history.

Hmm, I usually listen to Boulez's rendition, but now I definitely have to check out Jordan's!  How do you like the other performances in that box, GioCar?  Plenty of solo works.
"Every time you spend money you are casting a vote for the kind of world you want...."
Anna Lappé

Mirror Image

Quote from: Moonfish on May 13, 2018, 07:05:18 AM
Hmm, I usually listen to Boulez's rendition, but now I definitely have to check out Jordan's!  How do you like the other performances in that box, GioCar?  Plenty of solo works.

Have you heard Abbado's recording, Peter? Personally, it's my favorite.

Moonfish

Quote from: Mirror Image on May 13, 2018, 07:08:18 AM
Have you heard Abbado's recording, Peter? Personally, it's my favorite.

I actually haven't. I note that it can be found in the Abbado opera edition. My general sense of Abbado (with Mozart in particular) is typically a "thinner" sound web (if that makes any sense at all?) making me somewhat disappointed. It is just a different approach to the music.  I guess I'm spoiled with dense magical webs of music - especially when it comes to Debussy.  However, I will check out Abbado's Pelléas et Mélisande as well (since I do have a copy). I never used to listen much to Pelléas et Mélisande until I came across Boulez's recording.  It was a revelation. So - in your opinion - how does Abbado differ from Boulez?  Did you listen to Jordan's as well?
"Every time you spend money you are casting a vote for the kind of world you want...."
Anna Lappé

zamyrabyrd

Quote from: snyprrr on May 05, 2018, 05:55:13 AM
HAS ONE HEARD THE STAN. BUNIN DEBUSSY RECITAL????? 'Pour le Piano'...WOW!!!! Preferrable to Kocsis?!!!...

Thanks for the heads up. He is a very interesting pianist, well-polished and thought-out performances. This is Images Bk I:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QnTYM5L960
The piano is a bit tinty though, a little too metallic for Debussy in my opinion.
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Mirror Image

#472
Quote from: Moonfish on May 13, 2018, 07:16:25 AM
I actually haven't. I note that it can be found in the Abbado opera edition. My general sense of Abbado (with Mozart in particular) is typically a "thinner" sound web (if that makes any sense at all?) making me somewhat disappointed. It is just a different approach to the music.  I guess I'm spoiled with dense magical webs of music - especially when it comes to Debussy.  However, I will check out Abbado's Pelléas et Mélisande as well (since I do have a copy). I never used to listen much to Pelléas et Mélisande until I came across Boulez's recording.  It was a revelation. So - in your opinion - how does Abbado differ from Boulez?  Did you listen to Jordan's as well?

I think Abbado's view of Pelléas is one that is lusher, more opulent than Boulez's. Boulez is a bit more edgier, which is a valid view as well. Also, the orchestral performance in Abbado's performance is in a class of its' own (he has the Wiener Philharmoniker of course which aren't a 'French' sounding orchestra), but perform incredibly well. Also, I prefer the soloists in Abbado's to Boulez's (as fine as they are). I just think Abbado got the atmosphere of Pelléas and understood how to bring this atmosphere out in the score where many conductors seem to be weighted down by other challenges. In other words, Abbado's Pelléas is, for me, one of balance and the results are always rewarding for this listener.

Moonfish

Quote from: Mirror Image on May 13, 2018, 08:51:14 AM
I think Abbado's view of Pelléas is one that is lusher, more opulent than Boulez's. Boulez is a bit more edgier, which is a valid view as well. Also, the orchestral performance in Abbado's performance is in a class of its' own (he has the Wiener Philharmoniker of course which aren't a 'French' sounding orchestra, but perform incredibly well. Also, I prefer the soloists in Abbado's to Boulez's (as fine as they are). I just think Abbado got the atmosphere of Pelléas and understood how to bring this atmosphere out in the score where many conductors seem to be weighted down by other challenges. In other words, Abbado's Pelléas is, for me, one of balance and the results are always rewarding for this listener.

Ah, alluring to say the least. Are you a fan of Abbado in general or is it more this particular recording?
"Every time you spend money you are casting a vote for the kind of world you want...."
Anna Lappé

Mirror Image

Quote from: Moonfish on May 13, 2018, 08:54:51 AM
Ah, alluring to say the least. Are you a fan of Abbado in general or is it more this particular recording?

I wouldn't say I'm a great fan of Abbado, but there is certain repertoire I believe he does well in and Debussy is one composer that I think he understands really well. Mahler, Berg, and Prokofiev being three others I believe he has a good understanding of.

Moonfish

Quote from: Mirror Image on May 13, 2018, 11:02:55 AM
I wouldn't say I'm a great fan of Abbado, but there is certain repertoire I believe he does well in and Debussy is one composer that I think he understands really well. Mahler, Berg, and Prokofiev being three others I believe he has a good understanding of.

It would make sense that conductors & listeners attune to each other with "specialties".  Abbado certainly has lots of fans!
"Every time you spend money you are casting a vote for the kind of world you want...."
Anna Lappé

Mirror Image

Quote from: Moonfish on May 13, 2018, 11:12:24 AM
It would make sense that conductors & listeners attune to each other with "specialties".  Abbado certainly has lots of fans!

So Peter what set in the 'Debussy Box Set Sweepstakes' did you come away with? DG, Warner, or both?

Moonfish

#477
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 13, 2018, 12:04:20 PM
So Peter what set in the 'Debussy Box Set Sweepstakes' did you come away with? DG, Warner, or both?

Ha ha! Well, I have had the "old" DG Debussy Edition for a few years now, so I figured that the "completeness" aspect of the Warner was more interesting.  It is fun to come across the more unusual works of a composer one admires.  What about you? I suspect that you have a large number of individual releases?  ;)


I have the impression that the "new" DG is another reshuffling of the older DG (the new business model)?

[asin] B00742LLKU[/asin]
"Every time you spend money you are casting a vote for the kind of world you want...."
Anna Lappé

Baron Scarpia

Quote from: GioCar on May 13, 2018, 01:24:09 AMSince the only other performance by Jordan senior that I know is the Parsifal, and I like it very much, I'm inclined to think that Armin one of the most underrated conductors in history.

[asin]B01HC7UU3A[/asin]

I don't know if he is underrated, but all of the recordings I've heard from him on the Erato label have been superb.

Mirror Image

Quote from: Moonfish on May 13, 2018, 12:37:46 PM
Ha ha! Well, I have had the "old" DG Debussy Edition for a few years now, so I figured that the "completeness" aspect of the Warner was more interesting.  It is fun to come across the more unusual works of a composer one admires.  What about you? I suspect that you have a large number of individual releases?  ;)


I have the impression that the "new" DG is another reshuffling of the older DG (the new business model)?

[asin] B00742LLKU[/asin]

This post might interest you, Peter:

Quote from: Mirror Image on March 25, 2018, 06:55:55 AM
An excellent article, Jens. I very much enjoyed reading it. Unlike you, however, I found Véronique Dietschy to be quite special indeed and her choice of accompanists (whether Cassard or Strosser) are stellar. The Warner set has too many vocalists that I simply don't like with the exceptions of Véronique Gens and Gérard Souzay. I think Warner obviously can claim the title of Complete, but there are just too many transcriptions from other composers/musicians and this goes for arrangements as well that it seems DG is more concerned about the published works. Of course, we very well know that in many instances orchestral works like Khamma and La boîte à joujoux were both left to be orchestrated by Koechlin and Caplet respectively. I can't help feel that many of these orchestral arrangements are useless. Like for example, Collin Matthews' Préludes or Ansermet's Six épigraphes antiques. Both works, for me, sound much better on piano. Talking about this, reminds me of all the orchestrations Ravel did of his own piano works. The original piano scores can't be bettered. In some instances, an orchestration sounds rather good like Caplet's Children's Corner, which I thought was quite tastefully done. Anyway, to end this one breathed rambling nonsense, I heartily endorse the DG set based on the amazing performances and not on 'completeness'.