Debussy's Corner

[vers la flamme]

I looked this up after you mentioned "hammerless" pianism in another thread. Isn't this an idea that goes back to Debussy himself? To play the HIP devil's advocate, would it really be in an interpreter's best interest to shirk that notion entirely? Anyway I will have to check out the Beroff, I suppose my favorites probably fall in the "hammerless" category, but there is one very "hammered" Debussy pianist that I really love, and that is Alexis Weissenberg. He plays this music borderline romantically, but with a lot of emphasis and incisiveness.

[Mandryka]

I think the hammerless must mean softening the attack. Someone once said to me that Gieseking does this, but I haven't heard his recordings for so long I can't remember.

[milk]

I think the hammerless must mean softening the attack. Someone once said to me that Gieseking does this, but I haven't heard his recordings for so long I can't remember.

I looked this up after you mentioned "hammerless" pianism in another thread. Isn't this an idea that goes back to Debussy himself? To play the HIP devil's advocate, would it really be in an interpreter's best interest to shirk that notion entirely? Anyway I will have to check out the Beroff, I suppose my favorites probably fall in the "hammerless" category, but there is one very "hammered" Debussy pianist that I really love, and that is Alexis Weissenberg. He plays this music borderline romantically, but with a lot of emphasis and incisiveness.

I hadn't heard of this before, as a style. But the Etudes strike me as very percussive pieces of music. Are there really pianists who take this to the extreme? Even across recordings of various composers? Anyway, I do much enjoy this recommendation but I haven't compared it to someone else.

[Mandryka]

Are there really pianists who take this to the extreme?

In Debussy Etudes, my favourite: Anthony di Bonaventura.

https://www.youtube.com/v/pqe6u5kCLcA

[Mirror Image]

I looked this up after you mentioned "hammerless" pianism in another thread. Isn't this an idea that goes back to Debussy himself? To play the HIP devil's advocate, would it really be in an interpreter's best interest to shirk that notion entirely? Anyway I will have to check out the Beroff, I suppose my favorites probably fall in the "hammerless" category, but there is one very "hammered" Debussy pianist that I really love, and that is Alexis Weissenberg. He plays this music borderline romantically, but with a lot of emphasis and incisiveness.

I seem to recall that Debussy was striving for a 'hammerless' piano sound after he had witnessed a Javanese performance during an expo in Paris in the early 1900s. This kind of effect can especially be heard in his Préludes, Images, Estampes, and even the late, Études. It seems that the earlier piano pieces like Suite bergamasque, Rêverie, Deux Arabesques, Images oubliées, and Pour le piano all begin to point in this particular direction, but it was hearing that Gamelan orchestra that 'sealed the deal' so to speak. I can't say that I have any kind of fondness for Weissenberg. I find him to be a complete mismatch in Debussy (I feel similarly about Kristian Zimerman). I don't like 'rough' Debussy performances as I believe this music has a certain aesthetic it needs to uphold in order to be successful and, most importantly, flow.

[vers la flamme]

I seem to recall that Debussy was striving for a 'hammerless' piano sound after he had witnessed a Javanese performance during an expo in Paris in the early 1900s. This kind of effect can especially be heard in his Préludes, Images, Estampes, and even the late, Études. It seems that the earlier piano pieces like Suite bergamasque, Rêverie, Deux Arabesques, Images oubliées, and Pour le piano all begin to point in this particular direction, but it was hearing that Gamelan orchestra that 'sealed the deal' so to speak. I can't say that I have any kind of fondness for Weissenberg. I find him to be a complete mismatch in Debussy (I feel similarly about Kristian Zimerman). I don't like 'rough' Debussy performances as I believe this music has a certain aesthetic it needs to uphold in order to be successful and, most importantly, flow.

I've hear that before too, but I kind of question the veracity of it. As Javanese Gamelan music is nothing but hammers and percussion, I wonder, did he hear this music and think "this is exactly what I want my music NOT to sound like"...?

[Madiel]

I've hear that before too, but I kind of question the veracity of it. As Javanese Gamelan music is nothing but hammers and percussion, I wonder, did he hear this music and think "this is exactly what I want my music NOT to sound like"...?

Saying it's hammers and percussion is not equivalent to saying it's all hard thwacks and blows. Not all percussion instruments are designed to create a hard attack.

[Mandryka]

There are two relevant quotes about how Debussy played piano both from contemporaries -- Emile Vuillermoz  and Marguerite Long

Lui aussi aime palper, manier et pétrir sa musique, lui aussi aime la faire couler dans ses mains comme un avare faisant ruisseler des pièces d'or entre ses doigts pour en entendre que le tintement magique . . . Sous son doigt, le marteau percute précautionneusement la corde... Debussy s'intéresse aux longues résonances, il guette leur trajectoire dans l'espace jusqu'à l'évanouissement du dernier son harmonique14

and

Il jouait presque tout en demi-teinte, mais avec une sonorité pleine et intense, sans aucune dureté de l'attaque. L'échelle de ses nuances allait du triple pianissimo au forte, sans jamais arriver à des sonorités désordonnées où la subtilité des harmonies se fût perdue

If you can't read it and google translate doesn't sort it, let me know and I'll translate it. Or learn French and we'll take up the conversation in 10 years.

Here's a good example of Debussy playing without hammers

https://www.youtube.com/v/eNYiChGPbMM

[ritter]

... Not all percussion instruments are designed to create a hard attack.

...but more than 10 minutes of gamelan music may unleash suicidal tendencies (at least in me) 

The "hammerless" vs "percussive" dilemma in Debussy's music is an intersting one. IMHO, the truth (as often is the case) lies in the middle, and few pianists achieve an adequate balance between "mistiness" and clear articulation of the musical lines. Paul Jacobs is an example, and that's why he always tops my list of preferred Debussy performers. But, if I'd have to choose, I'd go for "percussive" over "hazy"; I've for instance developed a strong dislke of the legendary Gieseking recordings of because of his hazy, almost mushy sound (IIRC, Marguerite Long--whose Debussy, btw, I have not yet explored--had some rather disparaging remarks regarding Gieseking because of that).

[Mandryka]

I love the metaphor of Vuillermoz above -- lui aussi aime la faire couler dans ses mains comme un avare faisant ruisseler des pièces d'or entre ses doigts pour en entendre que le tintement magique.

He likes to make the music flow in his hands like a miser makes pieces of gold stream between his fingers to hear the magic tinkling (That's a terrible translation!)

[milk]

Has anyone listened to the mechanical piano renditions of Debussy? Is there any insight to be gained from them? I recall them being very straightforward in an almost amateurish way. Or maybe that's not the right description. They're not expressive sounding but I doubt one could tell much about Hammer-ing and I can't recall if it's even possible to get any kind of accuracy for those piano rolls. Doubtful.

[Mirror Image]

I've hear that before too, but I kind of question the veracity of it. As Javanese Gamelan music is nothing but hammers and percussion, I wonder, did he hear this music and think "this is exactly what I want my music NOT to sound like"...?

I think the point I was trying to make, more or less, was Debussy seemed to be attracted more to the sonority of that gamelan orchestra not necessarily the attack per se, but as Madiel pointed out not all percussion instruments are the same and require different kinds of attacks.

[Mirror Image]

The "hammerless" vs "percussive" dilemma in Debussy's music is an intersting one. IMHO, the truth (as often is the case) lies in the middle, and few pianists achieve an adequate balance between "mistiness" and clear articulation of the musical lines. Paul Jacobs is an example, and that's why he always tops my list of preferred Debussy performers. But, if I'd have to choose, I'd go for "percussive" over "hazy"; I've for instance developed a strong dislke of the legendary Gieseking recordings of because of his hazy, almost mushy sound (IIRC, Marguerite Long--whose Debussy, btw, I have not yet explored--had some rather disparaging remarks regarding Gieseking because of that).

Well said, Rafael. I'm with you on Gieseking. I never quite understood the attraction to his recordings nor have I personally been able to get into them.

[Madiel]

It occurred to me today that the piano itself is a percussion instrument, which rather neatly demonstrates the variety of attack possibilities without straying far from home.

Of course, you probably all thought about this already.

[milk]

It occurred to me today that the piano itself is a percussion instrument, which rather neatly demonstrates the variety of attack possibilities without straying far from home.

Of course, you probably all thought about this already.

That's why I'm having trouble understanding this distinction.

[Mirror Image]

Let's get off the topic of hammerless piano, because there's no such thing and it merely was an ideal that Debussy expressed and isn't something that was actually put into practice as you can't play the piano without any hammer hitting the string. You can only soften your attack and even then there are still strings being struck by hammers. As I mentioned earlier, it's the sonority itself and not the actual attack that seemed to be the effect that Debussy was striving for.

[Mandryka]

Let's get off the topic of hammerless piano, because there's no such thing and it merely was an ideal that Debussy expressed and isn't something that was actually put into practice as you can't play the piano without any hammer hitting the string. You can only soften your attack and even then there are still strings being struck by hammers. As I mentioned earlier, it's the sonority itself and not the actual attack that seemed to be the effect that Debussy was striving for.

Yes, we should talk about hammered-less rather than hammerless.

[Mirror Image]

Yes, we should talk about hammered-less rather than hammerless.

Well, I for one think we should talk about the music from Debussy that we love and discuss the man's life and inspirations and forget all this 'hammerless' talk.

[aukhawk]

Inspired by gamelan music wasn't he?   

[Mirror Image]

Inspired by gamelan music wasn't he?   

Amongst other influences.