Debussy's Corner

Started by Kullervo, December 19, 2007, 05:47:00 PM

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Todd



Some HIP Debussy.  While I am not too wild about period keyboards from the first three quarters of the 19th Century or before (though I do fancy the best of them), I have something of a weak spot for modern grands from the first couple decades of the last century.  Steinways and Bechsteins (as here), in particular, sometimes sound almost magical to my ears.  Why that should be, I have no idea.  And Debussy just seems like the ideal composer for such instruments.  When I spied this release, I was interested for works and artist, not instrument, so the 1900 Bechstein is just icing in the cake.

Véronique Bonnecaze is, I am pretty sure, new to my collection.  (I should probably be worried that I do not know for sure without scrubbing my entire collection.)  On the evidence of this recording, she's got chops.  And the right ear for the right instrument with the right repertoire.  She starts things off with a slow Clair de lune, though it never drags, and the decay of the piano adds a little something.  Next, she moves to L'Isle Joyeuse and dispatches it with at times glittering, bright playing, with the sustain pedal at times blurring music into an amorphous delight.  And that Bechstein really shines in the upper registers, bursting with color.  The second set of Images follows, and each piece is nicely characterized, with the close sound accentuating some individual notes in a most appealing way.  Indeed, the combo of instrument, music, and recording technique ends up sucking the listener into a detail oriented listening session.

The main attraction is of course the first book of Préludes.  One can never have too many recordings.  The only music I have collected more versions of is the New Testament.  Bonnecaze delivers a fine performance.  Listening here becomes even more detail oriented, and one is rewarded with color and a good amount of clarity where appropriate, and mystery where needed.  True, Le Vent dans la plaine and even more so Ce qu'a vu le vent d'Ouest lack maximum oomph in the ff playing – Bonnecaze never thunders like Zimerman – but the tonal variation of the instrument really focuses attention.  While upper registers sound bright, and lower registers a bit flat and dull and less powerful than on modern grands, the middle registers often sound most prominent.  And by often, I mean always.  That leads to some intriguing effects, not least in La Cathédrale engloutie, where the tolling bass notes sound woody and the right-hand playing can swell over it.  She paces the critical piece nicely indeed.  Each piece ends up distinct and distinctive.  Nice.

La plus que lente serves as a punchy little encore, starting slowly, with the pianist lilting and wandering and then accelerating and punching out notes in a an almost drunken manner.  The closest analog in my listening experience is Russell Sherman's final movement in Beethoven's Op 31/1.

So, a very nice Debussy recital overall, and one that makes me think I should probably expand my exposure to Bonnecaze's discography.

Recorded sound is close and clear and offers up details.  It also offers up either low-level analog hiss or pervasive low-level room noise that sounds like hiss.  Or perhaps some low-level electronic noise that mimics hiss.  That would be the first time that has popped up on a recording.

The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Dry Brett Kavanaugh

^ Nice performance. Still her music is worldly, rather than metaphysical.

Todd

The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

JBS

Quote from: Todd on December 01, 2022, 07:05:56 AMThe main attraction is of course the first book of Préludes.  One can never have too many recordings.  The only music I have collected more versions of is the New Testament.



How many do you have? Have you ever worked out a First Tier/Second Tier/etc as you did for the Holy 32?

Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

Mandryka

Quote from: Todd on December 01, 2022, 12:21:27 PMWhat?



Present the music as a suggestion of something ineffable which lies behind the real, rather than as a picture of the real. I've not heard the CD in question but I think Kars is quite a metaphysical Debussian.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Mandryka

. . . but my main reason for visiting this thread is to ask a question. Has anyone here any views on the relationship, if any, between Scriabin and Debussy?
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Todd

Quote from: Mandryka on December 01, 2022, 11:39:37 PMPresent the music as a suggestion of something ineffable which lies behind the real, rather than as a picture of the real. I've not heard the CD in question but I think Kars is quite a metaphysical Debussian.

Kars' Debussy is some of the best out there, but his playing does not offer a suggestion of something ineffable which lies behind the real. 
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Todd

Quote from: JBS on December 01, 2022, 06:45:52 PMHow many do you have? Have you ever worked out a First Tier/Second Tier/etc as you did for the Holy 32?

Seventy.  I've not tiered them.  I started a comparative listening project, but abandoned it after about forty versions. 
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Mandryka

Quote from: Todd on December 02, 2022, 04:23:11 AMKars' Debussy is some of the best out there, but his playing does not offer a suggestion of something ineffable which lies behind the real. 

Well how about if I claim that it does not offer a suggestion of something real which lies in front of the ineffable?
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Madiel

You can claim whatever you want.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Todd

Quote from: Mandryka on December 02, 2022, 05:32:09 AMWell how about if I claim that it does not offer a suggestion of something real which lies in front of the ineffable?

That's more tortured English, so it will do.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Dry Brett Kavanaugh

#691
Quote from: Mandryka on December 01, 2022, 11:39:37 PMPresent the music as a suggestion of something ineffable which lies behind the real, rather than as a picture of the real. I've not heard the CD in question but I think Kars is quite a metaphysical Debussian.

Yes, behind worldly real in-terms of three dimensional space and unidimensional time.  Will check the Kars.

Quote from: Mandryka on December 01, 2022, 11:42:47 PM. . . but my main reason for visiting this thread is to ask a question. Has anyone here any views on the relationship, if any, between Scriabin and Debussy?

Debussy was music. Scriabin, something else, beyond. Quasi-synesthesia.

Todd

Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on December 02, 2022, 07:34:22 AMYes, behind worldly real in-terms of three dimensional space and unidimensional time.

People certainly approach listening to music in wildly different ways. 

Who plays Debussy in a "metaphysical" manner?
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Mandryka

#693
Les sons et les parfums tournent dans l'air du soir isn't a musical description of sounds and perfumes turning. It is an attempt to capture in music Beadelaire's poem. It is not concerned primarily with making a musical picture of physical things, it transcends matter. In that sense, it's metaphysical.

Now as far as your question is concerned @Todd, have a listen to Kars and Bonnecaze playing the prelude with the Baudelaire in mind. I know who I think is more metaphysical!

https://fleursdumal.org/poem/142
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Todd

Quote from: Mandryka on December 02, 2022, 10:36:38 AMNow as far as your question is concerned @Todd, have a listen to Kars and Bonnecaze playing the prelude with the Baudelaire in mind. I know who I think is more metaphysical!

I am familiar with both.  Neither sound metaphysical.  I am unfamiliar with any recording ever, of anything, by anyone, that exists "behind" or outside space, let alone unidimensional time. 

I do hear alterations of tempo, legato, subdued dynamics, the effects of different hammers with pianos, etc and the resultant sound may evoke some type of favorable emotional response, but not universally.  One person's thoughtful, ruminative playing may be someone else's turgid and drab letdown, for instance.  It's fun to occasionally use terms of art such as "suspended time" or even "transcendent" to describe some playing, and for me that typically results from a slow or slower than normal tempo with fine dynamic gradations, but there is never anything metaphysical about it.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Mandryka

#695
It helps me when there is a text, which there is with the preludes, and particularly the one I chose.  I like to ask myself what the text/music relation is saying.

Here's another one I've been enjoying  -- a song --  L'ombre des arbres -- and the text of Verlaine's poem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LqwAKYqzlM&ab_channel=DawnUpshaw-Topic
https://www.oxfordlieder.co.uk/song/2812

The first verse seems more or less a musical setting of shadows etc. But things go off the wall as soon as we get to Te mira blême toi-même -- it's no longer musical word painting. He's expressing something beyond the words, something sublime and exalted.



Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Mandryka

Quote from: Todd on December 02, 2022, 10:53:33 AMI am familiar with both.  Neither sound metaphysical.  I am unfamiliar with any recording ever, of anything, by anyone, that exists "behind" or outside space, let alone unidimensional time. 

I do hear alterations of tempo, legato, subdued dynamics, the effects of different hammers with pianos, etc and the resultant sound may evoke some type of favorable emotional response, but not universally.  One person's thoughtful, ruminative playing may be someone else's turgid and drab letdown, for instance.  It's fun to occasionally use terms of art such as "suspended time" or even "transcendent" to describe some playing, and for me that typically results from a slow or slower than normal tempo with fine dynamic gradations, but there is never anything metaphysical about it.

Suspended time in music is interesting, because one thing music does is influence the listener's perception of time. I'll think about it.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Dry Brett Kavanaugh

#697
Quote from: Todd on December 02, 2022, 08:38:53 AMPeople certainly approach listening to music in wildly different ways. 

Who plays Debussy in a "metaphysical" manner?

Henkemans, Demus, maybe Werner Haas.

It's not a manner, it's being.

Dry Brett Kavanaugh

#698
Quote from: Mandryka on December 02, 2022, 11:31:17 AMSuspended time in music is interesting, because one thing music does is influence the listener's perception of time. I'll think about it.

Yes time disappears and so does your physical locality too. You (subject) become the music (object). No difference between the two. It is sometimes called flow, nirvana, swing, etc..

Todd

Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on December 02, 2022, 12:17:24 PMHenkemans, Demus, maybe Werner Haas.

Even if I thought Debussy (or any music) could be played (let alone recorded) in a metaphysical manner, Henkemans is one of the last pianists I would describe as playing in such a manner.  I don't know Demus in this music, but nothing I've heard from him indicates that he plays anything in such a manner.  I've never heard Werner Haas that I can recall.


Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on December 02, 2022, 12:58:11 PMYes time disappears and so does your physical locality too. You (subject) become the music (object). No difference between the two. It is sometimes called flow, nirvana, swing, etc..

Again, people certainly approach listening to music in wildly different ways. 


Quote from: Mandryka on December 02, 2022, 11:31:17 AMSuspended time in music is interesting, because one thing music does is influence the listener's perception of time. I'll think about it.

You know, it basically just means the playing is slow.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya