Debussy's Corner

Started by Kullervo, December 19, 2007, 05:47:00 PM

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Homo Aestheticus

#100
Quote from: Guido on October 16, 2008, 12:23:49 PM
What is that in musical terms? I seriously don't know what you mean. From Wagner's loud operas to a quiet movement of composers? Morton Feldman and the like? I just don't know what you think it heralds when you talk about it as a revolution. (Though I know what I think it heralds and signifies). Quietness in music?

And neither do I to be honest with you...  ???

I think it's a revolution because of its new harmonies (timbres) and the prominence that Debussy gave to the woodwinds... This is what comes to mind first.

pjme

#101
Khamma (1910) isn't top drawer Debussy like Jeux ( absolutely wonderful, subtle,enigmatic).
Khamma ( "ballet Egyptien") is partly orchestrated by Charles Koechlin .

In a litle book on Koechlin (Carrés Musiques/Séguier-Atlantica 2001) one can read :

( I translate freely): Debussy had financial problems and he accepted a commission by the British dancer Maud Allan. The argument, by mrs.Allan and W.L.Courtney, tells the story of Khamma , a young woman who sacrifices herself .The city is besieged and Khamma dances for Amon Râ, hoping that he will help the people. Her dance becomes so extatic that she dies suddenly, in front of Amon Râ's statue....
The work on Khamma is slowed down since Debussy is working on Le martyre de Saint Sébastien. By 1912 however, the score is almost complete and Debussy is really satisfied. Then a violent argument breaks out between Debussy and Maud Allan. She is not happy at all ( after seeing the pianoscore), wants many changes and threatens to give the commission to someone else. Debussy is deeply offended and refuses to finish the scoring. . Jacques Durand, Debussy's editor tries to mend the problems.He presents a young composer, pupil of Fauré, to finish the job : Charles Koechlin. Koechlin did similar work on Saint Saen's "Lola" ...
Koechlin finishes the orchestration,supervised by Debussy and "in friendship".
Koechlin :"Every week I went to show Debussy my sketches. We talked little - only about the orchestration. He was really satisfied with my work but warned me that performing Khamma would be very difficult.
Koechlin worked from december 1912 till the end of January 1913. But the ballet wasn't premiered till november 1924 ( Orchestre Colonne/Gabriel Pierné)
Koechlin is very enthusiastic about the score :" It is often very vigorous, but contains many moments of Debussy's inimitable charm. He finds influence of Stravinsky's Petrushka in it :" It is darker, some chords are almost bitonal.There is dissonance , loud gong strokes, the frenetical character of the last dance - it forshadowes the violent primitivism of Le sacre...".
Koechlin: "Very somber colors, low registers, the orchestral piano, divisi strings...it all strives for "une effrayante obscurité" -a menacing darkness.
Debussy : Nothing is more difficult than to look for transparence in dark nuances....





lukeottevanger

You're welcome - it's available for about £5 at Amazon UK at the moment...

Guido

Quote from: The Ardent Pelleastre on October 16, 2008, 12:53:03 PM
And neither do I too be honest with you...  ???

I think it's a revolution because of its new harmonies (timbres) and the prominence that Debussy gave to the woodwinds... This is what comes to mind first.

Really that's it? That's why you're always harping on about why it's such an inredible revolution? Hmm...

Again, what do you think of that incredible masterpiece - the cello sonata?
Geologist.

The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away

Guido

Quote from: lukeottevanger on October 16, 2008, 12:50:16 PM
Karl, this cheap two-fer is an absolute winner for Debussy and Ravel duets - it's got everything on it, including some pretty obscure treasures (and not a harmonic in sight  0:) ). Debussy's four hand output is of major importance in his oeuvre as a whole. En blanc et noir is late, great Debussy at his best - and as we're otherwise left with only the Etudes, the three sonatas and a couple of odd scraps, the importance of this set can't be over-estimated; the Epigraphs Antiques are simply exquisite - evidently the composer of the faun, but older and even more seismically sensitive (I have fond memories of playing these at university with Huw Watkins). Even the early Petite Suite has a lot going for it. And the Ravel - Ma Mere l'Oye in its original pristine form (as played ay our wedding, with aforementioned Huw taking the primo part); rarities like Frontispiece (for 5 hands!) and Entre-cloches; duet versions of La Valse and the Rhapsodie Espagnole.... And I haven't listed everything. The two piano Debussy Nocturnes in Ravel's arrangement is here too, in fact.

Might be tonight's listening, in fact.


*ordered* along with the complete piano music and a two-fer of orchestral works...
Geologist.

The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away

Homo Aestheticus

Quote from: Guido on October 16, 2008, 02:33:20 PMReally that's it? That's why you're always harping on about why it's such an inredible revolution? Hmm...

Guido,

O.k. so  maybe the  Faun  was not that innovative after all...  ???

Why then do scholars place it alongside other seminal works like Monteverdi's  Orfeo, Beethoven's  Eroica  and  Wagner's  Tristan ?

Didn't the flute of the faun 'bring new breath to the art of music', as Boulez said.

He goes on:

The Prelude gave wings to a supple, mobile expressiveness, demanding a technique of perfect instantaneous adequacy. Its use of timbres seemed essentially new, of exceptional delicacy and assurance in touch; the use of certain instruments - flute, horn and harp - showed the characteristic principles of the manner in which Debussy would employ them in later works. The writing for woodwinds and brasses, incomparably light-handed performed a miracle of proportion, balance and transparency. The potential of youth possessed by this score defies exhaustion and decrepitude....."

Either way it makes no difference to me what the scholars and commentators say because the only thing that matters is how it sounds and how it makes me feel.

QuoteAgain, what do you think of that incredible masterpiece - the cello sonata?

I've never heard it but I will start listening to it this weekend.   

lukeottevanger

Quote from: The Ardent Pelleastre on October 16, 2008, 03:47:15 PM
Guido,

O.k. so  maybe the  Faun  was not that innovative after all...  ???

Why then do scholars place it alongside other seminal works like Monteverdi's  Orfeo, Beethoven's  Eroica  and  Wagner's  Tristan ?

Didn't the flute of the faun 'bring new breath to the art of music', as Boulez said.


etc.

Eric, I don't think Guido or anyone else is arguing against the significance of the piece - it's often cited as one possible symbol of the beginning of musical modernism, or of the true beginning of the musical 20th century, or as both. (Though why an anti-modernist like you should wish for it to be in that position eludes me). I think Guido simply wanted a little musical elucidation of what you mean by 'quiet revolution' and, when you gave it, was surprised to see - as I was - that it didn't really amount to much. The Faun is a major piece, but not becuase of its woodwind writing, wonderful and even 'new' though that often is.

Homo Aestheticus

Quote from: lukeottevanger on October 16, 2008, 03:53:34 PM
etc.

Eric, I don't think Guido or anyone else is arguing against the significance of the piece - it's often cited as one possible symbol of the beginning of musical modernism, or of the true beginning of the musical 20th century, or as both. (Though why an anti-modernist like you should wish for it to be in that position eludes me). I think Guido simply wanted a little musical elucidation of what you mean by 'quiet revolution' and, when you gave it, was surprised to see - as I was - that it didn't really amount to much. The Faun is a major piece, but not becuase of its woodwind writing, wonderful and even 'new' though that often is.

Luke,

You're absolutely right...  Why the heck am I trying to cite passages which speak of it as a doorway to 20th century music... There must be something in my apple juice this evening...  :-[

It really did stand by itself and pointed vaguely at what the future might turn out to be. I like the idea of it having been largely consigned to the status of dreamy exoticism and cuddly charm.


Guido

#108
Quote from: lukeottevanger on October 16, 2008, 03:53:34 PM
etc.

Eric, I don't think Guido or anyone else is arguing against the significance of the piece - it's often cited as one possible symbol of the beginning of musical modernism, or of the true beginning of the musical 20th century, or as both. (Though why an anti-modernist like you should wish for it to be in that position eludes me). I think Guido simply wanted a little musical elucidation of what you mean by 'quiet revolution' and, when you gave it, was surprised to see - as I was - that it didn't really amount to much. The Faun is a major piece, but not becuase of its woodwind writing, wonderful and even 'new' though that often is.

Yes this is exactly what I meant. Just as Luke said, paraphrasing athousand commentator's before him, it is usually considered one of the first Modern works - a revolution against the past in some way - as Boulez was saying. I was just surprised that you kept talking about it as revolutionary (as if you thought that was a good thing), when you then dismiss any and all modernism which it inspired (including the majority of Debussy's own later music!) Revolution suggests rejection of the past, not an adding of subtlety, or whatever you think this piece has that is lacking in all other music - but 'quiet revolution' just appears to be an empty phrase that has no meaning.

Look forward to the cello sonata - it's an absolute gem. Try and listen with open ears.

EDIT: I see you have replied. I don't think you're going to find anything that doesn't say that it in some way opened the door to early 20th century musical Modernism. To use your own example as a parallel, it's like saying that you don't think that the Eroica opened the door to Romanticism and 19th century music.
Geologist.

The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away

karlhenning

Quote from: lukeottevanger on October 16, 2008, 12:50:16 PM
Karl, this cheap two-fer is an absolute winner for Debussy and Ravel duets - it's got everything on it, including some pretty obscure treasures (and not a harmonic in sight  0:) ). Debussy's four hand output is of major importance in his oeuvre as a whole. En blanc et noir is late, great Debussy at his best - and as we're otherwise left with only the Etudes, the three sonatas and a couple of odd scraps, the importance of this set can't be over-estimated; the Epigraphs Antiques are simply exquisite - evidently the composer of the faun, but older and even more seismically sensitive (I have fond memories of playing these at university with Huw Watkins). Even the early Petite Suite has a lot going for it. And the Ravel - Ma Mere l'Oye in its original pristine form (as played ay our wedding, with aforementioned Huw taking the primo part); rarities like Frontispiece (for 5 hands!) and Entre-cloches; duet versions of La Valse and the Rhapsodie Espagnole.... And I haven't listed everything. The two piano Debussy Nocturnes in Ravel's arrangement is here too, in fact.

Might be tonight's listening, in fact.



Thanks, Luke;  that did catch my eye . . . wonder if they've got it at Borders . . . .

karlhenning

Quote from: pjme on October 16, 2008, 01:16:00 PM
Khamma (1910) isn't top drawer Debussy like Jeux ( absolutely wonderful, subtle,enigmatic).
Khamma ( "ballet Egyptien") is partly orchestrated by Charles Koechlin .

In a litle book on Koechlin (Carrés Musiques/Séguier-Atlantica 2001) one can read :

( I translate freely): Debussy had financial problems and he accepted a commission by the British dancer Maud Allan. The argument, by mrs.Allan and W.L.Courtney, tells the story of Khamma , a young woman who sacrifices herself .The city is besieged and Khamma dances for Amon Râ, hoping that he will help the people. Her dance becomes so extatic that she dies suddenly, in front of Amon Râ's statue....
The work on Khamma is slowed down since Debussy is working on Le martyre de Saint Sébastien. By 1912 however, the score is almost complete and Debussy is really satisfied. Then a violent argument breaks out between Debussy and Maud Allan. She is not happy at all ( after seeing the pianoscore), wants many changes and threatens to give the commission to someone else. Debussy is deeply offended and refuses to finish the scoring. . Jacques Durand, Debussy's editor tries to mend the problems.He presents a young composer, pupil of Fauré, to finish the job : Charles Koechlin. Koechlin did similar work on Saint Saen's "Lola" ...
Koechlin finishes the orchestration,supervised by Debussy and "in friendship".
Koechlin :"Every week I went to show Debussy my sketches. We talked little - only about the orchestration. He was really satisfied with my work but warned me that performing Khamma would be very difficult.
Koechlin worked from december 1912 till the end of January 1913. But the ballet wasn't premiered till november 1924 ( Orchestre Colonne/Gabriel Pierné)
Koechlin is very enthusiastic about the score :" It is often very vigorous, but contains many moments of Debussy's inimitable charm. He finds influence of Stravinsky's Petrushka in it :" It is darker, some chords are almost bitonal.There is dissonance , loud gong strokes, the frenetical character of the last dance - it forshadowes the violent primitivism of Le sacre...".
Koechlin: "Very somber colors, low registers, the orchestral piano, divisi strings...it all strives for "une effrayante obscurité" -a menacing darkness.
Debussy : Nothing is more difficult than to look for transparence in dark nuances....






Merci beaucoups!

Homo Aestheticus

Quote from: Guido on October 16, 2008, 04:13:34 PMLook forward to the cello sonata - it's an absolute gem. Try and listen with open ears.

Yes.

Quote from: Guido on October 16, 2008, 04:13:34 PMEDIT: I see you have replied. I don't think you're going to find anything that doesn't say that it in some way opened the door to early 20th century musical Modernism.

Yes, I have no problem acknowledging that in a  small  way it did open the door to musical Modernism.

Well now that we've got the  Faun  pretty much settled we are now left with the real biggie:

Do you consider Pelléas et Melisande, begun in the early 1890's and finished in 1902, the firstborn of a new century or the final exquisite rendering of the Wagnerian age ?



Dancing Divertimentian

#112
Quote from: The Ardent Pelleastre on October 16, 2008, 04:26:54 PM
Yes, I have no problem acknowledging that in a  small  way it did open the door to musical Modernism.

Well now that we've got the  Faun  pretty much settled we are now left with the real biggie:

No, it's not settled, not by a long shot. Faun, in a CONSIDERABLE way opened the door to musical modernism.

QuoteDo you consider Pelléas et Melisande, begun in the early 1890's and finished in 1902, the firstborn of a new century or the final exquisite rendering of the Wagnerian age ?

It is what Debussy intended it to be - which I've taken pains to spell out for you already in Debussy's own words (see my previous posts).

IOW, P&M isn't the final flowering of Wagnerism. It is a reaction AGAINST Wagnerism and an attempt to introduce a new (modern) age. Just as Faun had been.



Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

Homo Aestheticus

Donwyn,

QuoteP&M isn't the final flowering of Wagnerism

My ears say YES it is though in its own delicate and wonderfully eccentric way.

QuoteIt is a reaction AGAINST Wagnerism and an attempt to introduce a new (modern) age. Just as Faun had been.

No,  Jeux  is a genuine reaction against Wagnerism.

I do not see  P&M  as a dawn, but as a sunset (like Debussy said of Wagner...)  Poetic sensitivity and refinement of this order is always a very, very late phenomenon.

In short, P&M  ends the 19th century.

Dancing Divertimentian

Quote from: The Ardent Pelleastre on October 16, 2008, 06:30:41 PM
Donwyn,

My ears say YES it is though in its own delicate and wonderfully eccentric way.

No,  Jeux  is a genuine reaction against Wagnerism.

I do not see  P&M  as a dawn, but as a sunset (like Debussy said of Wagner...)  Poetic sensitivity and refinement of this order is always a very, very late phenomenon.

In short, P&M  ends the 19th century.

Bunk.


Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

Homo Aestheticus

#115
Donwyn,

Quote from: donwyn on October 16, 2008, 06:41:06 PM
Bunk.

It is not bunk.

Do you have any idea of my reverence for Debussy's opera ?

P&M  extracts so many techniques of harmony and orchestration from Wagner... I personally see it as the opera that takes  Parsifal  to  undreamt  levels of poetic sensitivity. Or at times it could be seen as the coolest, subtlest and most understated  Tristan  imaginable.

What it boils down to is:  P&M  exorcises Wagner and follows on from Wagner, while being UTTERLY Debussyan.

Bartok's  Bluebeard Castle ? ... Now there's a work firmly in the 20th century, presaging Expressionism.

And Wozzeck ? ... It is so dissimilar to  P&M  it needs no comment.

P&M  is a uniquely exquisite, late Romantic work. Modernism would have gone its own way without it just the same.

Dancing Divertimentian

Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

Homo Aestheticus

Quote from: donwyn on October 16, 2008, 07:30:05 PM
Pink, read my signature.

THAT'S Debussy.

Exactly!   And  P&M  overflows with finesse and nuance...  0:)

karlhenning

Quote from: The Ardent Pelleastre on October 16, 2008, 07:12:01 PM
It is not bunk.

Do you have any idea of my reverence for Debussy's opera ?

It is bunk, Eric, and your irrational reverence is feeding the bunk.

karlhenning

Quote from: The Ardent Pelleastre on October 16, 2008, 07:32:02 PM
Exactly!   And  P&M  overflows with finesse and nuance...  0:)

As do Jeux, the Cello Sonata, the Sonata for Flute, Viola & Harp, &c. &c. &c.