Debussy's Corner

[ritter]

It occurred to me, Pelleas is often compared to Parsifal, even though they are very different. But I think it can likewise be compared to Tristan. And the opening measures of the opera actually sound very similar to Tristan's words "So starben wir, um ungetrennt", from act 2. And of course there is the whole love triangle-thing which of course is cliché older than dirt.

I'll have to check that Tristan - Pelléas connection you point out, Alberich! Very interesting... As for the Parsifal - Pelléas connecttion, though, the first interlude in Act 1 of Debussy's opera must be inspired in the transformation music of Parsifal... I cannot think of any other explanation...

— but the artistry with which it's done, of course.

Artistry which, IMHO, is superb both in Tristan and Pelléas...new angles to an age-old stroy!

[San Antone]

The Tristan:Pelleas connection mainly involves aspects of the plot: the love triangle with an intended bride/wife being in love with a younger trusted relation (much younger half-brother in Pelleas and "adopted son" or ward in Tristan).  But the love/death aspect and the ridiculous philosophy of Wagner's that drives so much of the plot of Tristan is thankfully not found at all in Pelleas. 

Musically, Debussy was slightly more influenced by Parsifal, which he heard shortly before beginning Pelleas - but Debussy strove to distance himself as far from Wagner as possible.  Tristan has some of Wagner's most impressionistic music it is much more expressionistic than anything in Debussy.  The other similarity between Parsifal and Pelleas is the amount of sung speech in Parsifal, and with Pelleas entirely done as expressive recitative.  But Wagner is always more operatic with soaring melodies and dramatic singing than Pelleas which is purposely more restrained and understated.

[ritter]

The Tristan:Pelleas connection mainly involves aspects of the plot: the love triangle with an intended bride/wife being in love with a younger trusted relation (much younger half-brother in Pelleas and "adopted son" or ward in Tristan).  But the love/death aspect and the ridiculous philosophy of Wagner's that drives so much of the plot of Tristan is thankfully not found at all in Pelleas. 

Musically, Debussy was slightly more influenced by Parsifal, which he heard shortly before beginning Pelleas - but Debussy strove to distance himself as far from Wagner as possible.  Tristan has some of Wagner's most impressionistic music it is much more expressionistic than anything in Debussy.  The other similarity between Parsifal and Pelleas is the amount of sung speech in Parsifal, and with Pelleas entirely done as expressive recitative.  But Wagner is always more operatic with soaring melodies and dramatic singing than Pelleas which is purposely more restrained and understated.

All very interesting, sanantonio, thanks...but I take strong exception to the use of the term "ridiculous philosphy" in relation to Tristan...      I think the Tristan libretto is, poetically, perhaps Wagner's greatest achievement.

It is clear that Debussy wanted to distance himself from Wagner, but it is also known that he admired Parsifal (particularly the desolate prelude to Act 3), and it's obvious he couldn't avoid Wagner's long shadow...

And, even good ol' Claude couldn't surpress the occasional "operatic" outburst. For instance, Pelléas's soaring exclamation "Et maintenant je t'ai trouvée...Je l'ai trouvée!...", which ijn its intensity is really striking in  live performace, and is very effective.

Cheers,

[San Antone]

I'm sorry, but to the extent Wagner was channeling Schopenhauer, Wagner becomes ridiculous (not the poetry, but with the ideas), of course this is all IMHO.  The music is glorious, and that's enough for me, although I prefer Pelleas to all other operatic works.



I am writing an article which will deal with Wagner, Mahler and Debussy: comparing and contrasting these three composers and in general how the German and French lines of tradition through these composers led to different but mutually important strands in the 20th century, and even the 21st.

[Jaakko Keskinen]

And I forgot: Tristan is actually a love square.

[Karl Henning]

And I forgot: Tristan is actually a love square.

The more, the merrier . . . well, no:  it doesn't end at all merrily, does it?

http://www.youtube.com/v/ufDIxGLcUHE

[Jaakko Keskinen]

the first interlude in Act 1 of Debussy's opera must be inspired in the transformation music of Parsifal... I cannot think of any other explanation...

The strings in the background in interlude remind me of Siegfried's Waldweben section.

[ritter]

I am writing an article which will deal with Wagner, Mahler and Debussy: comparing and contrasting these three composers and in general how the German and French lines of tradition through these composers led to different but mutually important strands in the 20th century, and even the 21st.

I look forward to reading this when it is completed--even if it turns out to be of Wagnerian or Mahlerian proportions  (if you care to share it, of course  ).

Cheers,

[Moonfish]

Well, I think the explanation for this is that, performed in it's entirety as a play, Le Martyre should be rather long. AFAIK, there's no modern recording of the whole thing (i.e., all the music and all the spoken text). When we get complete versions of the piece, I think they're complete (or nearly so) as far as the music is concerned, with the text substituted by narration (that's the case for Inghelbrecht live on Montaigne, MTT, Ansermet, Boulez live on Col Legno, Mercier on RCA--of the versions in my collection). There was an old Cluytens recording on French Columbia, never transferred to CD and which I've never heard--but did see in a familiy friend's collection many years ago--, which spanned 3 LPs; I suppose this is a close as a recorded version ever came to what the original concept of Le Martyre was (but even here the text is abriged)...



A French language forum (unkonwn to me until now) discsussed this some time ago. One poster sums the Cluytens up in this classic line: "J'ai aussi la version Cluytens, belle oubliée, mais l'overdose de texte parlé devient vite indigeste". More info here

The cast is the following:

Debussy, Le Martyre de Saint-Sébastien (version abrégée par Véra Korène), Véra Korène (Le Saint), Henriette Barreau (La Mère douloureuse), Jean Marchat (L'Empereur), Rita Gohr [sic], Solange Michel (Les Gémeaux), Jacques Eyser (Le Préfet), Martha Angelici (La voix de la vierge Erigone), Maria Casarès (La fille malade des fièvres), Mattiwilda Dobbs (Vox Coelestis), Jacqueline Brumaire (Vox Sola), Paul Guers (Sanaé), Lucienne Jourfier (Anima Sebastiani), Choeurs Raymond Saint-Paul, Orchestre National de la Radiodiffusion Française, André Cluytens (vers 1952)

Some inetersting and intriguing names here (Maria Casarès among  the actresses, soprano Mattiwilda Dobbs). But one poster in that forum states that their are 15 minutes spans in the recording of all talk and no music. 

Thank you Ritter!  Plenty to explore but likely hard to find. I wonder why the booklet mentioned a complete Monteux version with the LSO? Perhaps it has been extinguished in some old vault...

[Moonfish]

Thanks ritter for doing the research.  After reading your post I do remember Debussy's music being described as incidental music to a play when I first was interested in the work and read its history.  I think it contains some of his best music, and find the symphonic suite to be a good way to hear the best chunks of this music.  However, the usual version performed as "complete" with the narrations include much more of the music, and the narrations are comparatively short, 3 minutes is about the longest, IIRC, and do add some context that could enhance an appreciation of the music.

I'd stay away from two recordings, though, Bernstein and Cambreling since Bernstein re-wrote the narration in English and Cambreling's is in German.  Unless you happen to want to hear the narration in precisely those languages.

Not too long ago I listened to as many of the available long versions as I could find and chose MTT and Gatti as my favorites.  Ansermet and the other older recordings suffer from old sound IMO and the music is so beautiful I felt it marred the experience.  The Cluytens IMO is out of the question since I am not interested in the dialogue, per se, and is in old sound and merely adds more of the talking which is not the point, IMO.

If I had to choose and recommend just one it would be Gatti, released in 2012, it has modern sound and a mostly French team, but the MTT was released in 1993 and has very good sound and overall a very good recording too.

Which is why in my original post those were the ones I suggested.

I actually found the Bernstein version interesting to listen to. It gave me a sense of the play and narration (as I do not know French), which in turn allowed me to appreciate the original in a different fashion. Bernstein's recording does in no way replace a recording in the original French, but rather enhances the listening experience of the original (IMHO).

[North Star]

The more, the merrier . . . well, no:  it doesn't end at all merrily, does it?

A case of too many cooks, I think. 

[ritter]

Thank you Ritter!  Plenty to explore but likely hard to find. I wonder why the booklet mentioned a complete Monteux version with the LSO? Perhaps it has been extinguished in some old vault...

My pleasure...

And a little bonus: the complete Cluytens thing (with all that spoken text    ) can be listened to here   

As for Monteux, I find no trace whatsover of a complete Martyre with the LSO (except, surpsiningly, a passing mention in the Spanish Wikipedia--but with no reference provided  )... I'm afraid it's a confusion with his well-known recprding of the symphonic fragments (originally on Philips, now on Australian Eloquence)...

Amicalement,

[pjme]

Véra Korène, (French/Russian actress Rebecca Vera Koretsky,  (17 july 1901  Bakhmut/Ukraine-20 novembre 1996 Louveciennes.)

The version of Cluytens was made after a series of representations at the Theâtre de Fourvière in Lyons / july 1952.



Thanks for sharing an audio file!

P.

[Abuelo Igor]

All of which reminds me I should be giving this CD another spin one of these days:

[San Antone]

All of which reminds me I should be giving this CD another spin one of these days:

I've never heard the Debussy Fall of the House of Usher, and didn't even know it had been recorded.  I am assuming someone other than Debussy prepared it for performance - who was it?  I will definitely look for that recording, thanks.

[San Antone]

For anyone interested in Debussy's Usher:

https://www.youtube.com/v/VA68Qc0m6bA

[North Star]

I've never heard the Debussy Fall of the House of Usher, and didn't even know it had been recorded.  I am assuming someone other than Debussy prepared it for performance - who was it?  I will definitely look for that recording, thanks.

La chute de la maison Usher (in the reconstruction by Juan Allende-Blin) Jean-Philippe Lafont, François Le Roux, Christine Barbaux, Pierre-Yves le Maigat, Monte Carlo Philharmonic Orchestra, conducted by Georges Prêtre (EMI, 1984)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_chute_de_la_maison_Usher_(opera)

[San Antone]

La chute de la maison Usher (in the reconstruction by Juan Allende-Blin) Jean-Philippe Lafont, François Le Roux, Christine Barbaux, Pierre-Yves le Maigat, Monte Carlo Philharmonic Orchestra, conducted by Georges Prêtre (EMI, 1984)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_chute_de_la_maison_Usher_(opera)

Ah, thanks.  The Robert Orledge version might be the one to have (which was done after Allende-Blin's), and that's what is in the in the video posted above - but it would be interesting to compare the two.

[Abuelo Igor]

Another "posthumous reconstruction" that I've had for ages:



Wikipedia says that "all that survives" of Le diable dans le beffroi is "three pages of sketches", but, a few paragraphs later, it is stated that a performing version was premiered in 2012 in Montreal. Any recordings of this?

[Madiel]

I wonder why the booklet mentioned a complete Monteux version with the LSO? Perhaps it has been extinguished in some old vault...

Or perhaps whoever wrote the booklet just got their facts wrong. It would hardly be the first time.