Olivier Messiaen (1908-1992)

Started by bhodges, January 03, 2008, 09:35:19 AM

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(poco) Sforzando

Quote from: Leon on May 03, 2011, 06:22:01 AM
That you, and the other members of your anti-Messiaen cabal. . . .

Well, harrumph encore un fois! "Cabal!"

This reminds me of something Rosen wrote regarding Hans Pfitzner, when some writer made the accusation of a "conspiracy" to keep Pfitzner's music from being heard (paraphrasing from memory here): "What a splendid conspiracy that must be! One only wonders where one can sign up."
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

Luke

Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on May 03, 2011, 07:02:02 AM
Well, harrumph encore un fois! "Cabal!"

This reminds me of something Rosen wrote regarding Hans Pfitzner, when some writer made the accusation of a "conspiracy" to keep Pfitzner's music from being heard (paraphrasing from memory here): "What a splendid conspiracy that must be! One only wonders where one can sign up."

I've never seen evidence of an anti-Messiaen cabal, though, I'm happy to say. Speaking as someone who just plain simple enjoys Messiaen's music, someone who feels the intended Pavlovian responses and associations go off every time he does one of those uniquely Messiaen-y things he does so often, I have no problem at all with your own criticisms of Messiaen, written both here and in the past. He is gaudy, garish and vulgar, at times - the point of difference, I think, is that some think there is a place for that in music and some don't. The gaudiness, after all, only chimes precisely with his own descriptions of his faith and his music so in that sense he has acheived his goal, even if it's a goal you don't rate very highly. The problem I had was with MI's description of his music as 'random, mindless, and heartless' which doesn't ring at all true for music so carefully, thoughtfully and passionately written - I'd have thought that even those who find him distastefully vulgar would agree that there is heart and mind in the music.

springrite

Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on May 03, 2011, 07:02:02 AM
Well, harrumph encore un fois! "Cabal!"

This reminds me of something Rosen wrote regarding Hans Pfitzner, when some writer made the accusation of a "conspiracy" to keep Pfitzner's music from being heard (paraphrasing from memory here): "What a splendid conspiracy that must be! One only wonders where one can sign up."

There should be a poll for signing up. Add a few of the usual suspects (Reger, anyone?) and let it roll!
Do what I must do, and let what must happen happen.

Scarpia

Quote from: Leon on May 03, 2011, 07:22:45 AM
Well, you asked so I told you.  But it is not contempt that I feel towards you, nothing that rises to that level.

Now, that's pure flattery.   ;D

Mirror Image

Quote from: Luke on May 03, 2011, 02:51:42 AM
...except that he doesn't use that system all that much, and when he does, it is to create passages of a craggy, unpredictable heiratic grandeur suitable to the text. I don't really have a problem with this, only one element of many in the mix.

I think that to accuse Messiaen, one of the most heart-on-sleeve composers I can think of, especially amongst his contemporaries, of lacking heart, as MI does, is not really comprehensible. There are few other such unabashed, gaudy, unashamed composers in the 20th century. Likewise to accuse him, of all composers, with his carefully devised and (this is so important!) always audible systems, of splurging random notes is very wide of the mark. There are composers to whom these criticisms might apply, but Messiaen is so markedly not one of them that I find it very odd when I read that sort of thing - like describing Brahms as too frivolous, or Boulez as too sentimental

I hear his music as noisy, outer space music with no real musical content. In fact, it's not even worth debating, because I won't change my mind about his music just like you probably won't change yours, so let's just agree to disagree. Sound good? Okay...

Philoctetes

Quote from: Mirror Image on May 03, 2011, 08:21:22 AM
I hear his music as noisy, outer space music with no real musical content. In fact, it's not even worth debating, because I won't change my mind about his music just like you probably won't change yours, so let's just agree to disagree. Sound good? Okay...

No, that sounds narrow. What of his music have you heard? I'll admit that some of his music can seem 'free-floating', but I would say that his compositions draw from a much broader perspective than that (especially his organ works).

(poco) Sforzando

Quote from: Mirror Image on May 03, 2011, 08:21:22 AM
I hear his music as noisy, outer space music with no real musical content. In fact, it's not even worth debating, because I won't change my mind about his music just like you probably won't change yours . . . .

Which is precisely why it is worth debating, because one's individual perceptions may reflect a skewed view of reality that if challenged may lead to greater insight and growth as a listener. Meanwhile, Philoctetes, which of the organ works do you find most interesting?
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

Philoctetes

#107
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on May 03, 2011, 08:37:29 AM
Which is precisely why it is worth debating, because one's individual perceptions may reflect a skewed view of reality that if challenged may lead to greater insight and growth as a listener. Meanwhile, Philoctetes, which of the organ works do you find most interesting?

Apparition de l Eglise Eternelle is my favorite organ work, period. It's a layered construction which is essentially one large culmination of a crescendo.

L Ascension and Messe de la Pentecote are also both fantastic.

But for me, and this shows a bias, you cannot go wrong with any of his organ compositions.

Mirror Image

Quote from: Philoctetes on May 03, 2011, 08:25:08 AM
No, that sounds narrow. What of his music have you heard? I'll admit that some of his music can seem 'free-floating', but I would say that his compositions draw from a much broader perspective than that (especially his organ works).

I haven't heard any of his chamber works or the works for solo instruments. I have heard the following orchestral works:

Turangalîla-Symphonie
L'ascension
Chronochromie
Éclairs sur l'au-delà...

Of these works I didn't find any of them inspiring, worth hearing again, or even remotely interesting. Like I said, outer space music with no drive or emotional/intellectual appeal to me whatsoever.

DavidW

Philo I've heard it said that Messiaen's organ works are supposedly on par with the master, Bach.  Do you agree or do you think there is a bit of hyperbole there?

Scarpia

Quote from: haydnfan on May 03, 2011, 08:45:16 AM
Philo I've heard it said that Messiaen's organ works are supposedly on par with the master, Bach.  Do you agree or do you think there is a bit of hyperbole there?

ROTFLOL

Philoctetes

Quote from: Mirror Image on May 03, 2011, 08:45:00 AM
I haven't heard any of his chamber works or the works for solo instruments. I have heard the following orchestral works:

Turangalîla-Symphonie
L'ascension
Chronochromie
Éclairs sur l'au-delà...

Of these works I didn't find any of them inspiring, worth hearing again, or even remotely interesting. Like I said, outer space music with no drive or emotional/intellectual appeal to me whatsoever.

I'll agree that I don't particularly find his orchestral works all that intriguing, but as I've mentioned his organ works are utterly fantastic, as are all of the solo works that I've heard. And his chamber works are all deftly handled. 

Quote from: haydnfan on May 03, 2011, 08:45:16 AM
Philo I've heard it said that Messiaen's organ works are supposedly on par with the master, Bach.  Do you agree or do you think there is a bit of hyperbole there?

I personally find them more compelling, but they come very different traditions. I feel that Bach's compositions are cleaner, but I think that Messiaen holds the edge when it comes to harmonies.


Mirror Image

Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on May 03, 2011, 08:37:29 AM
Which is precisely why it is worth debating, because one's individual perceptions may reflect a skewed view of reality that if challenged may lead to greater insight and growth as a listener.

Well you can debate by yourself. You will be doing this anyway, because I already told you that I don't care for his music, but if you're so hellbent on changing my opinion, therefore trying to prove Messiaen's worth to me, then by all means go right ahead. All I said I don't care for his music and people here act like it's the end of the world. Get over it. It's just one man's opinion. People have tried to get me into his music and have failed because I don't hear anything great about it. Like I said, it's outer space music with no rhyme or reason, it's just an endless series of random notes that make no logical sense to me.

Scarpia

Quote from: Philoctetes on May 03, 2011, 08:49:32 AM
Just avoid Scarpia's skepticism.

I'm not denying that some of it is good, but a comparison to Bach strikes me as absurd. 

Philoctetes

Quote from: Mirror Image on May 03, 2011, 08:51:35 AM
Well you can debate by yourself. You will be doing this anyway, because I already told you that I don't care for his music, but if you're so hellbent on changing my opinion, therefore trying to prove Messiaen's worth to me, then by all means go right ahead. All I said I don't care for his music and people here act like it's the end of the world. Get over it. It's just one man's opinion. People have tried to get me into his music and have failed because I don't hear anything great about it. Like I said, it's outer space music with no rhyme or reason, it's just an endless series of random notes that make no logical sense to me.

I honestly refuse to believe that you're this blind.

You've barely listened to any of his music, and you're 'insight' are clearly misguided by this lack of listening.

I don't care if you don't find it great, but you should definitely have better information.

I have an insane amount of problems with Mozart, but the problem with lies only with me, and I make efforts to try and understand it, and know that one day I'll find something that will make it click.

Philoctetes

Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on May 03, 2011, 08:54:16 AM
I'm not denying that some of it is good, but a comparison to Bach strikes me as absurd.

And I don't find it absurd at all.

Coco

MI you are rather dogged in your need to confrontationally posit your reactionary responses to music that other people enjoy. What's up?

(poco) Sforzando

Quote from: Mirror Image on May 03, 2011, 08:51:35 AM
Well you can debate by yourself. You will be doing this anyway, because I already told you that I don't care for his music, but if you're so hellbent on changing my opinion, therefore trying to prove Messiaen's worth to me, then by all means go right ahead. All I said I don't care for his music and people here act like it's the end of the world. Get over it. It's just one man's opinion. People have tried to get me into his music and have failed because I don't hear anything great about it. Like I said, it's outer space music with no rhyme or reason, it's just an endless series of random notes that make no logical sense to me.

Look, I don't really care what the hell you do. But it's a helluva lot of fun at times pushing your buttons, and your intransigence and close-mindedness impress only yourself. Speaking as someone who dislikes a big technicolor production like Turangalila, but who does find the Quartet for the End of Time very beautiful and moving, I think your "opinion" of work you haven't heard and refuse to hear has no merit whatever. But do what you like; as a student I flunked in a freshman English course once said to me, "it don't bother me none."
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

(poco) Sforzando

Quote from: Philoctetes on May 03, 2011, 08:55:40 AM
I have an insane amount of problems with Mozart, but the problem with lies only with me, and I make efforts to try and understand it, and know that one day I'll find something that will make it click.

Good for you, Kevin. That's what I am willing to hear what you have to say about Messiaen. And I promise you that what you are not hearing in Mozart now is truly there, because too many listeners who care deeply about this music have found it.
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."