Olivier Messiaen (1908-1992)

Started by bhodges, January 03, 2008, 09:35:19 AM

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Coco

As an aside, Messiaen's valuable influence as a teacher for countless composers of the generation after his probably shouldn't be understated.

DavidW

Who did Messiaen teach and influence?


Mirror Image

#163
Quote from: James on May 03, 2011, 03:11:59 PM
Give it a rest will ya. If the music doesn't speak to someone it doesn't mean that they don't care about music on a deep level. That's a really dumb conclusion to instantly jump to.

He'll never give it a rest. He has constantly mocked my own opinion on numerous occasions, which, to my estimate, lies a larger problem deep in his psyche. He simply cannot stand to hear somebody bad mouth a composer he likes and if they do they are somehow "wrong" for feeling the way they do. He goes around with some sort of superiority complex and makes remarks that he's studied and heard more music that I have, which, honestly, doesn't make any sense and had nothing to do with the conversation at hand, which was about Messiaen. I really don't care what he's studied or what he's heard. That's totally irrelevant to me.

Music isn't a popularity contest folks. If I don't enjoy the music, then I move onto a composer's music whom I do enjoy. It's as simple as that.

Philoctetes

Quote from: James on May 03, 2011, 03:11:59 PM
Give it a rest will ya. If the music doesn't speak to someone it doesn't mean that they don't care about music on a deep level. That's a really dumb conclusion to instantly jump to.

I don't think he jumped to that conclusion.

Philoctetes

Quote from: Mirror Image on May 03, 2011, 03:16:21 PM
He'll never give it a rest. He has constantly mocked my own opinion on numerous occasions, which, to my estimate, lies a larger problem deep in his psyche. He simply cannot stand to hear somebody bad mouth a composer he likes and if they do they are somehow "wrong" for feeling the way they do. He goes around with some sort of superiority complex and makes remarks that he's studied and heard more music that I have, which, honestly, doesn't make any sense and had nothing to do with the conversation at hand, which was about Messiaen. I really don't care what he's studied or what he's heard. That's totally irrelevant to me.

Music isn't a popularity contest folks. If I don't enjoy the music, then I move onto a composer's music whom I do enjoy. It's as simple as that.

And you need to come back to reality.

Scarpia

If only it weren't for that Ondes Martenot.   :(

Coco

I like the Ondes! I have other problems with Turangalîla (the length, the Disney-esque orchestration). However, it has been a few years since I gave it a fair listen.

Mirror Image

#168
Quote from: Coco on May 03, 2011, 04:36:28 PMI like the Ondes!

Especially the way Koechlin used it in Le Docteur Fabricius. He used it in a textural way.

(poco) Sforzando

Quote from: Mirror Image on May 03, 2011, 03:16:21 PM
He'll never give it a rest. He has constantly mocked my own opinion on numerous occasions, which, to my estimate, lies a larger problem deep in his psyche. He simply cannot stand to hear somebody bad mouth a composer he likes and if they do they are somehow "wrong" for feeling the way they do. He goes around with some sort of superiority complex and makes remarks that he's studied and heard more music that I have, which, honestly, doesn't make any sense and had nothing to do with the conversation at hand, which was about Messiaen. I really don't care what he's studied or what he's heard. That's totally irrelevant to me.

I have posted on classical music forums for well over a dozen years, and have made many friends here. I will leave it to others to decide whether I have any kind of "superiority complex," if I "simply cannot stand to hear somebody bad mouth a composer I like," or if there is any "problem deep in my psyche." Anyone who wishes can search my posts here to see how I have interacted with Mirror Image and the rest of the forum. I won't deny I have roughed MI up on occasion, but judge for yourself (from the selected excerpts below) if I have done nothing but "constantly mock him":


QuoteQuote from: Mirror Image on April 01, 2011, 07:02:21 PM
Yes, I can be incredibly blunt sometimes, but I often do apologize to those I have wronged.

Sfz: Then you're not a troll. Trolls never apologize to anyone for anything.

QuoteQuote from: Mirror Image on April 18, 2011, 07:00:01 PM
I have heard his Orchestral Suites and the Brandenburg Concertos. I have also heard his Violin Concertos, which were actually quite nice. I mean I shouldn't be so hard on J.S. Bach, but my goodness his music just bores me to tears. Since I'm an orchestral fan, do you know of any recordings that put some life into this music?

Sfz: Without knowing what performances of the suites and concertos you already have, I can't do much to suggest other performances to you. I can't say the four orchestral suites are my favorite Bach, either, and neither are the solo cello suites, but if lyricism is your thing, I can't think of anything more highly lyrical than the slow movement of the Bach Double Concerto in D minor for two violins. I think my preferred Brandenburgs are by Tafelmusik, but there's a big thread on Bach orchestral music on one of the other subforums if you want more possibilities.

QuoteQuote from: Mirror Image on January 05, 2011, 07:14:34 PM
I don't like Mozart, but you don't see me jumping all over someone for liking him. That's the point I'm making here. There's no need in it. I can't change what somebody likes/dislikes. We all can simply agree to disagree and move on from there.

Sfz: I wasn't thinking primarily of you. The person I mainly thought of (now deceased) made a virtual career of Mozart-bashing on this forum.

QuoteQuote from: Mirror Image on April 19, 2011, 07:40:25 PM
I don't think it's that I'm purposely trying to dislike composers like Boulez, Stockhausen, Xenakis, Nono, Carter. There are no lyrical moments, which even Berg and Schoenberg has these moments in their music. It's just a wash of loud, clashing dissonance.

Sfz: I don't think this is an accurate description of Boulez, to start. There's considerable delicacy and even lyricism in much of Boulez.

QuoteQuote from: Mirror Image on April 22, 2011, 07:50:53 PM
Well there are only a few operas I enjoy: both of Berg's, Ravel's L'Enfant et les sortileges, and Bartok's Bluebeard's Castle. I'm still "discovering" Janacek's operas, so this is a work still in progress. This said, all of these composers have composed amazingly well in other genres, especially orchestral which is what I mainly listen to.

Sfz: That is undoubtedly true. I can see, for example, admiring Debussy without taking an interest in Pelleas, or Ligeti while ignoring Le Grand Macabre. It becomes harder to claim an interest in Berg or Janacek without wanting to know their operas, as in both cases opera is central to these composers' careers.
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

Mirror Image

Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on May 03, 2011, 07:37:17 PMI won't deny I have roughed MI up on occasion.

And I won't deny that you haven't either. ;)

snyprrr

Quote from: James on May 03, 2011, 06:00:54 PM
ET EXSPECTO RESURRECTIONEM MORTUORUM
Written to commenorate the dead of two world wars, Messiaen's Et Exspecto Resurrectionem Mortuorum (And I await the Resurrection of the Dead) was commissioned in 1964 by the writer Andre Malraux in his capacity as Minister of Culture. Written for wind, brass and percussion, it was "conceived", as he put it, "to be played in a church, taking resonance for granted, also the ambience and even the echoing of sounds ... I even wanted it to be played in the open air and on a mountain height." This, then, is one of Messiaen's most monumental works: its five sections, each headed by a biblical quotation, move gradually from state of despair to one of joyous exultation by way of a range of extraordinary rich and varied sonorities. There's an overriding feeling of mystery to this work with its dynamic bursts of sound and silence being applied in abstract blocks or delicate touches of colour. The fourth-section climax alternates the sombre plain-song of the brass with the animated chirruping of the woodwind, the latter representing the song of the Calandra lark - a symbol of heavenly joy for the composer.

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Boulez's second recording of this work is more meditative and spirtual than his earlier version. There's a fantastic spatial dimension in evidence and some beautifully controlled brass playing from the Cleveland Orchestra.

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For those seeking a cheaper alternative, go for this 1966 recording, supervised by Messiaen himself; Sony's subsequent digital remastering has made what was already a fine performance sound even better.

I was YouTubin Messiaen today. Et Expecto might be my fav. The Celestial City piece, also,... that piece is very spiky/spritely,...cheery, in an avant way.

I try to make headway in those couple of really huge canvases (the Canyons piece, and isn't their a Jesus piece for orchestra that goes to 2 cds?), but to no avail. I always hit one of those endless slow mvmts.

I'll revisit Turangalila. Problem is, I sold my Messiaen Collection many years ago,... why?? ??? Such a bother to get it all again.

Sometimes I think, that, if Xenakis were a stereo recording, Messiaen would be contained in one of the speakers (meaning, there's be just as much going on, in contrast, in the other speaker).

Luke

That Roger Muraro DVD of the Vingt Regards is just incredible. Not sure which one you've linked to there, James, I've no time to look now, but the one which really makes me reel is the recording of that stupendously difficult (well-nigh impossible) fugue, Par Lui tout a ete fait. The total, blazing mind body and soul conviction of the pianist here has to be seen to be believed. Anyone who thinks Messiaen is a cold, calculating composer of random, passionless noise will struggle to think that once they've seen that!

Luke

#173
Couldn't resist checking - that is the one you linked to: nice choice!



edit - and couldn't resist peeking ahead (seeing as I have to get off the computer NOW) to the peak of the awesome crescendo and the voice of God, where it appears through the flames, at 5.52. Awesome playing.

Luke

Quote from: James on May 05, 2011, 02:54:14 AM
SAINT FRANCOIS D'ASSISE
...
Messiaen completed his one and only opera in 1983 when he was seventy-six years old and - as far as most commentators were aware - completely indifferent to the genre...

Not exactly - it's an oft-repeated fact of his life that an early acquaintance with Pelleas et Melisande was a transformative experience for him. Just check wiki, and indeed:

QuoteHe continued music lessons; one of his teachers, Jehan de Gibon, gave him a score of Debussy's opera Pelléas et Mélisande, which Messiaen described as "a thunderbolt" and "probably the most decisive influence on me".

St Francois is probably the most expensive score I have ever seen for sale - each individual scene retails separately for well in excess of £200, or did when I last checked. Apart from La Transfiguration, it's the one major Messiaen orchestral score I don't own. Can't imagine why...  ;D


Luke

Yes, it wasn't a genre which, per se, seemed to have grabbed him very much, but when a particular example of it did, in those formative days, it was clearly a powerful influence. Pink Harp would be so pleased...

Luke

He also used examples from opera a great deal in his analysis class, so he obviously knew it intimately, at least certain pieces. In the end, though, if you are teaching e.g. harmony, harmony is harmony is harmony, and it doesn't matter if your example comes from opera or wherever else. I agree that he didn't seem to show much interest in exploring the genre himself. But I do like to read about Messiaen's deep knowledge of other music - his own language is so complete and self-sufficient that (like e.g. Scriabin) it often seems as if he is entirely set-aside from all other music. And of course that isn't true, as reading about his early influences and his work as a teacher shows us.

http://issuu.com/ensemblecb3/docs/theinfluenceofmessiaen

the above link is to an online book detailing a lot about these issues, with a full description of Messiaen's own early musical life and influences and a number of recollections of him as a teacher. For instance (to return to what we were talking about) it describes Pelleas, for example, as 'the most important work for Messiaen, both in his teaching and in his own composition, and contains George Benjamin's recollection that Messiaen would devote 6 weeks of study to it. All this tends to suggest that P+M wasn't just an important piece for Messiaen, it was the important piece. Interesting, to me anyway...

another great page

http://symposium.music.org/SupportingFiles/ArticlesVol40/Benitez.html

with examples of Messiaen teaching (again, a deep analysis of a section of Pelleas is here, and references to analyses of Tristan, Gotterdammerung, Don Giovanni, Orfeo, Boris Godunov...). It's all fascinating stuff, I'm going to read it in depth when I get home!

(poco) Sforzando

I have to admit that of all Messiaen's works, none seems as indigestible to me as St. Francis, and therefore I don't particularly care what the score costs. I have the Nagano recording, because I found it for cheap at Academy in NY some years ago, but whenever I've dipped into it I've always found it very static and frankly rather dull. On my last trip to Paris in 2004, it was being mounted at the Bastille and I thought of going, but since it started at 5 pm and seemed likely to last till midnight, I demurred.
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

Luke

Quote from: James on May 05, 2011, 07:41:14 AM
Stockhausen like most composers is totally guilty as well. Again, thank god for recordings.

I'm not sure 'most composers' are guilty of these 'bloated' behemoths! St Francois is one, for sure, granted, as are the Licht operas, the Ring and many other sprawling, late Romantic, too-obvious-to-name works. But it's not something most composers have done!

Coco

As much of a Messiaen skeptic as I am, I'd still love the opportunity to catch Saint François live.