Olivier Messiaen (1908-1992)

Started by bhodges, January 03, 2008, 09:35:19 AM

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Scarpia

Quote from: Henk on May 10, 2011, 02:01:48 PM
Well I really have been striked by Messiaen's music more then once. His music has convinced me, your ideas about it can't make me re-evaluate Messiaen. So I just object to your ideas because of I have good experience with Messiaen's music.

Messiaen is like Debussy for me, but then taken to the next level. And he really influenced Takemitsu. Do you also dislike Takemitsu?

I have no idea what you are saying.  I didn't suggest anyone should reevaluate Messian, I have only described my reaction to it.  I have never heard anything by Takemitsu.

Henk

Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on May 10, 2011, 02:04:55 PM
I have no idea what you are saying.  I didn't suggest anyone should reevaluate Messian, I have only described my reaction to it.  I have never heard anything by Takemitsu.

I don't say that you have suggested to reevaluate Messiaen. But I'm always interested in ideas about music, because ideas can make me listen to music in other ways and influence my taste in a positive way.

Henk

Luke

#202
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on May 10, 2011, 01:53:19 PM
Well, my familiarity with Messiaen is not exhaustive, by any means, so anything I saw should be taken with a grain of salt.  There are the pieces which build to a climax, but the impression I get is more in the manner of the unfolding of a musical idea, and the accretion of more and more sound to that idea.   There is still the absence of a sense of resolving, in tonal music of returning to the home key, or in less tonal music of the musical themes confronting each other and coming to a new place.

In any case, maybe the issue is that I have to try to understand Messiaen's music on his terms, if at all.

As i say, I think you describe this feature of Messiaen's music very well. But I'd still point you in the direction of some of those piece I mentioned. The climax in e.g. Le baiser de l'Enfant-Jesus (no 15 of the Vingt Regards) is not of 'the unfolding of a musical idea, and the accretion of more and more sound to that idea' sort (though that definitely exists everywhere in Messsiaen), it's certainly of the 'sense of resolving, in tonal music of returning to the home key, or in less tonal music of the musical themes confronting each other and coming to a new place' type (in this case, it's radiantly tonal, sumptuously, possibly kitschly so, the piece being in a typical Messiaen sparkling F sharp major). Halfway through, after a few crunchingly, bitingly atonal bars in which the 'theme of chords' is compacted and explored - a necessary moment of disonant impact - we even have that most romantic of features, a dominant pedal, held and held and held under chromatically striving lines until tension reaches breaking point, and then the big release of the main melodic idea in the home key. It's very, very traditional, risking a proximity to the kitsch and the vulgar - bravely, honestly so, I think - and at the same time it's as advanced as any of the other pieces in the set. It certainly doesn't stick out, even though it's preceded by the dissonant, birdsong-ridden angels and followed by the harsh, brazen, percussive noises of the prophets, shepherds and Magi (both these pieces full to bursting with typical Messiaen techniques). I think that's one of the things I adore and respect about Messiaen (and in other composers too - Tippett, Scriabin spring to mind) - that he could reinvent what tonality and atonality and disonance and consonance mean so that they can sit side by side without jarring, and so that the most disonant music is full of enough system and rigour to make as much 'sense' as the most consonant. I digress - apologies. In any case, I mention this as only one example - there aren't hundreds in Messiaen's music, I will be honest, but they are there!   :)

Scarpia

Ok, I will have to look that piece up.

Luke

Have a look here - Muraro is amazing

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=FCB7EBD096CA256E

The piece I am talking about is at the bottom, but - depending on your disonance threshold - you might find no 6, an unbelievable (and unbelievaby hard) fugue to your liking. At any rate, it is certanly developmental and drives to an astonishing climax. No 10, the Regard de l'Esprit de joie, is another of these developing, climax-driven ones. Meanwhile the 'Premiere Communion de la Vierge' is an example of Messiaen telling a story - the virgin communing with her unborn child, a very 'internal' piece, literally, which reaches an extraordinary moment in which we hear, low down, the heartbeats of the baby. Hideously kitsch, some might say - but not me. This meant the world to Messiaen, and if played with tenderness and love, it sounds it. This number is particularly beautiful, a slow, quiet, still meditation in B flat major.

J.Z. Herrenberg

The videos have been removed...
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

Scarpia

I have the Yvonne Loriod recording.

Luke

I'm watching one of them right now! L'Esprit de joie, an incredible piece of piano writing, utterly exhilarating

(I think they are put up by different people, so maybe some are there and some aren't)

Luke

Loriod is great, can't go wrong there. Serkin has incredible fervour and vision too. My two versions of choice, but if you can see the Muraro do, because it's amazing music to watch.

Luke

Ogdon is interesting too. You can download his whole recording here

http://takecare-maready.blogspot.com/search/label/John%20Ogdon

A great blog, this one...

Scarpia

#210
Quote from: Luke on May 10, 2011, 03:16:19 PM
Ogdon is interesting too. You can download his whole recording here

We can talk about Ogdon until we're blue in the face, the recording is impossible to find.  I'm curious about Beroff and Aimard, but since I've never heard the piece at all, I'm getting ahead of myself.

Luke

Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on May 10, 2011, 03:22:02 PM
We can talk about Ogdon until we're blue in the face, the recording is impossible to find.  I'm curious about Beroff, but since I've never heard the piece at all, I'm getting ahead of myself.

The link to the Ogdon recording is at the bottom of the page I linked to. Two links, actually, one for each of the discs - the lines highlighted in purple and red.

Scarpia

Quote from: Luke on May 10, 2011, 03:26:45 PM
The link to the Ogdon recording is at the bottom of the page I linked to. Two links, actually, one for each of the discs - the lines highlighted in purple and red.

Transfers from vinyl, not my cup of tea. 

Luke

Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on May 10, 2011, 03:34:32 PM
Transfers from vinyl, not my cup of tea.

No, from the CD - to quote the blog:

QuoteI made a just-about-passable transfer and would have settled for that, but before I could post it, God placed at my disposal this now-discontinued Decca CD reissue.

Although this is taken from the CD, I have included scans from the Argo LP along with the front and back covers of Decca's out-of-print reissue (the liner notes are the same in both editions.)

Scarpia

Quote from: Luke on May 10, 2011, 03:38:21 PM
No, from the CD - to quote the blog:

Ok, I'll give it a try.

Mirror Image

#215
I just bought the 18-CD set of Messiaen on Warner Classics and I'm really looking forward to hearing it.

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This will probably vamp an obsession of mine. Next up the Complete Edition on DG. ;) No, I'm kidding, but I do want to dig into that side of the discography at some point.

Mirror Image

I also want to complete my orchestral recordings with Chung on DG as I already own his Turangalîla Symphony.

Mirror Image

Quote from: James on May 10, 2011, 05:16:48 PM
Many boxed sets & recordings were put out during his 100 anniv. few years back .. incl. a DG complete edition

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A spin off .. that just has just the orchestral & chamber music ..

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Then there is this .. the complete orchestral works ..

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etc etc etc

(see amazon.com for more, lots to choose from)

The one on Naive looks pretty interesting. Have you heard any from this set, James?

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Mirror Image

Quote from: James on May 10, 2011, 05:46:31 PM
I probably have .. but if you're not that into him (yet), buying bulk may not be the way to go.
You should cherry pick his best work and absorb it to get used to his sound-world & language.

Well I already have the 18-CD set on Warner Classics coming, but I don't plan on buying anymore Messiaen until I become, as you say, familiar with his musical language, which will take a lot research in addition to the listening, which I plan on doing.

Mirror Image

Quote from: James on May 10, 2011, 06:09:49 PM
It's not as hard-going as it seems at first, you'll get used to it in no time. Believe me, and after you do .. you'll probably take that logical step and move onto some of his world famous pupils who all have unique sound-worlds of their own. i.e. Boulez, Stockhausen, Xenakis, Benjamin etc (you may not like all of it, but you'll probably make many surprising discoveries that will make you rethink things)

Perhaps you're right. Speaking of Xenakis. There's a box set of his orchestral recordings coming out (I think it's a reissue) that I'll probably pickup at some point.