Olivier Messiaen (1908-1992)

Started by bhodges, January 03, 2008, 09:35:19 AM

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snyprrr

Quote from: Mirror Image on August 16, 2011, 09:49:48 PM
Just bought this set for $65, which is a great deal:



Oh,...wait!! :o

So, instead of LISTENING to what you already have (and illuminating us), you just went ahead and bought even more stuff you're not going to listen to? ???? Don't you know that if you don't come up with a Nagano review soon, I might have to Buy Something,...uh, ANYTHING!!! More, More, More, More, More....

AAAAAhhhhhhhh :o...

CDCDCD awaits.


;) ;D 8)

Mirror Image

Quote from: snyprrr on August 17, 2011, 07:52:00 AM
Oh,...wait!! :o

So, instead of LISTENING to what you already have (and illuminating us), you just went ahead and bought even more stuff you're not going to listen to? ???? Don't you know that if you don't come up with a Nagano review soon, I might have to Buy Something,...uh, ANYTHING!!! More, More, More, More, More....

AAAAAhhhhhhhh :o...

CDCDCD awaits.


;) ;D 8)

Yes, very good point, snyprrr. I'll try and listen to that Nagano tonight. Please be patient. :)

Mirror Image

snyprrr, sorry for the late reply, I've been pretty busy today, anyway about the Nagano recording of the Turangalila Symphony: it is very good indeed. I do not think, however, that it trumps Chailly's stellar performance with the Concertgebouw, which is probably my favorite performance of this work. I remember Chung's being quite good as well.

I have been making my way through this set:

[asin]B001E4S0X0[/asin]

This is really excellent so far. Cambreling shows an affinity for this music and the SWR Symphony Orchestra Baden-Baden and Freiburg play with authority. The audio quality, an important aspect in this music I think, is exemplary.




snyprrr

Quote from: Mirror Image on August 22, 2011, 02:17:40 PM
snyprrr, sorry for the late reply, I've been pretty busy today, anyway about the Nagano recording of the Turangalila Symphony: it is very good indeed. I do not think, however, that it trumps Chailly's stellar performance with the Concertgebouw, which is probably my favorite performance of this work. I remember Chung's being quite good as well.

I have been making my way through this set:

[asin]B001E4S0X0[/asin]

This is really excellent so far. Cambreling shows an affinity for this music and the SWR Symphony Orchestra Baden-Baden and Freiburg play with authority. The audio quality, an important aspect in this music I think, is exemplary.

I couldn't wait. Nagano arrived today.

:o :o :o

Wow! What a spectacular recording! I'd actually says it's a tiny bit over the top: listen to the unison note in the first movement; there is a searing intensity to the aural experience that is as controlled distortion as I've ever heard. I just can't remember the Chailly recording being as mythic as this one. The bass drums really sound like Hindu gods. The climaxes are,,, I'll call them 'terrifying', because the Teldec sound just seems to accept more and more volume. But, that's why I got it, and boy it delivers. How's the Cambreling?

'They' say that Nagano is overtly fast, but, so far (Track 6) everything seems just ultra exciting. He's not as fast as Rosbaud. And I don't hear the criticisms of overt sweetness.

I haven't listened to this piece since Chung and Chailly came out with dueling versions. This Teldec recording really has a character to it, and the orchestra sounds like a monster, and Nagano manages the affair very excitingly. I might try Chailly again, but right now you'd have to convince me on anyone else: Nagano is a Contender!

And Aimard is scintillating and cataclysmic.





Mirror Image

Quote from: snyprrr on August 24, 2011, 07:52:25 PM
I couldn't wait. Nagano arrived today.

:o :o :o

Wow! What a spectacular recording! I'd actually says it's a tiny bit over the top: listen to the unison note in the first movement; there is a searing intensity to the aural experience that is as controlled distortion as I've ever heard. I just can't remember the Chailly recording being as mythic as this one. The bass drums really sound like Hindu gods. The climaxes are,,, I'll call them 'terrifying', because the Teldec sound just seems to accept more and more volume. But, that's why I got it, and boy it delivers. How's the Cambreling?

'They' say that Nagano is overtly fast, but, so far (Track 6) everything seems just ultra exciting. He's not as fast as Rosbaud. And I don't hear the criticisms of overt sweetness.

I haven't listened to this piece since Chung and Chailly came out with dueling versions. This Teldec recording really has a character to it, and the orchestra sounds like a monster, and Nagano manages the affair very excitingly. I might try Chailly again, but right now you'd have to convince me on anyone else: Nagano is a Contender!

And Aimard is scintillating and cataclysmic.

Now you make me want to listen to the Nagano again! :P

The Cambreling is very well played. His performance has some character too. There is a great clarity in his reading that matches Chailly's, although we shouldn't forget that Cambreling doesn't have the Berliners or Concertgebouw at his disposal either, he has the SWR Sinfonieorchester Baden-Baden and Freiburg, which are a fine orchestra, but doesn't match the virtuosity of the afore mentioned orchestras. Then again, who can come close to Berlin and Concertgebouw anyway? They're two of the best orchestras in the world.

snyprrr

I remember Turangalila being the first real Modern Music that I could get into, but at some point, I must have grown tired of the piece (Chung was my guide at the time,... I muuust have had Chailly, too??,... don't remember, but must have??).

Now, with Nagano blazing the trail, I'm hearing this piece coming backwards from Xenakis, rather than forwards from Beethoven. I'm hearing this piece like a Ballet,... I mean, the rhythmic element,... and the Title itself,... state as much. I can so hear the different Themes as 'cartoon' characters (in the Hindu god, elephants vs. monsters kind of way) interacting with each other. After all, Messiaen does compose in this block-like manner. I almost see this Music as a great-cousin of Xenakis's ballet Antikhthon (1971). This is easily one of Xenakis's most straightforward and block-like constructions, and you can see how both Composers like for things to 'speak on top of one another'.

I remember thinking Turangalila was such a long work,... I think I remember the Penguin Guide speaking of 'longeurs'(sic?),... but now I'm appreciating all the variety within the ten movements. There certainly is a wealth of glittering detail to luxuriate in.


I looked over some timings (Chailly, Previn, Ozawa, etc.,...), and, everyone seems to be within the same 'pocket',... except, some are maybe 2mins. longer in the slow movement. By comparison, Rosbaud is a juggernaut (YouTube).


I'd love to get into some of the movements,... I'm really liking the two 'Chants d'amour', and the mainly percussion driven 'Turangalila,... uh, is it 2, or 3??'. And the finale.

Ahhh,...I just didn't realize how much I needed this Music back with me. ;) ;D

snyprrr

I'm so impressed with Nagano's Turangalila that I'm moving on to Les Canyons des Etoiles(is that right?). We have Chung, Salonen, Constant, and De Leeuw. It appears as though I haaave to go with Chung here,... the reviews are just too good to consider Constant, but, I would consider Constant if you all convince me.

Salonen seems to yield to Chung by consensus. De Leeuw seems MIA on Amazon.

So,... it must be Chung then?

And Rattle in Eclairs?

lescamil

Throw in another vote for the Muraro/Chung recording of Des canyons aux étoiles... (mentioning the pianist is essential!). Muraro's rendering of the piano part is the best commercially available (I heard a live performance of Aimard doing it better once). He brings every little detail out of the work, all while weaving all of the little sound effects into a real musical work. This really is Messiaen's most avant garde work, and is a sort of encyclopedia of his whole body of work up to there, and Chung makes it all sound very natural. I love this recording in every way and don't see much wrong with it.
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snyprrr

Quote from: toucan on August 29, 2011, 07:46:39 PM
Marius Constant was a student of Messiaen's, who belonged to the group of musicians that, with support from Erato, finalized the task of getting acceptance for Messiaen & integration of his work into the repertoire. With Constant's recordings, therefore, you get a first hand authenticity that comes from close collaboration with the master himself. And with the Erato recordings in general (as with the Ades recordings of an earlier generation), you get the standard of performance to be met, if you want legitimacy as a Messiaen performer.

Marius Constant was also a composer with a particularity that might endear him to Americans who grew up in the sixties: he wrote the theme song for the Twilight Zone!

You know I could agonize over this for who knows how long. Constant is 1/2 price, but Chung probably sounds 4X as good simply by default of the recording. How much better can the Constant be?

But, as it comes to me, my main concern in Messiaen, from past experience with the Erato discs, is that the actual sound of the various cymbals and gongs is what's at stake here, because I seem to recall some of those Erato cymbals sounding a bit clangy (same goes for Boulez's Ritual on Sony). That's why I like the Nagano so much, because it really sounds like they really took the time to pick the very best sounding (and blending) cymbals.

Another consideration would be the quality of the 'silence' in the recording, since there is an abundance of 'space' in the score. I have to believe that the DG recording will be light years beyond what Erato was dealing with in the '70s. Also, the sounds of the extracurricular instruments like the... ahem... wind machine (who really uses a wind machine?,... oh yes, Sciarrino) are very important. How can't the newer technology win out?

I'm also curious about Chung in this particular piece, since I'm so willing to dismiss him in the other giant pieces. Obviously there must be a crowning achievement in his Cycle,... is this it? Also, the artwork is a vast improvement on Sony's...uh... grade level artwork.

The thing is, you have to order either the Erato/Apex, or the DG, from the UK. Huh?

It's not usual that I would be advocating for the more expen$ive cd, but

snyprrr

ok, I'm going for Chung in Canyons. (looks like 'crayons', haha)

Any last minute efforts?

Coco

Quote from: snyprrr on August 31, 2011, 07:11:26 AM
ok, I'm going for Chung in Canyons. (looks like 'crayons', haha)

The lost Messiaen piece — 52 coleurs d'un boîte de Crayola

Muzition

My local orchestra (Montreal Symphony Orchestra) is doing Turangalila next week.  I'm so excited!

snyprrr

#252
Just received Eclairs with Rattle.

I haven't heard the music for years, and, frankly, the themes are much sparer than the ones found in Turagalila, but, this piece has lots to recommend it, I think. The opening hymn-like movement seems a bit static, which is fair, but by the third movement things get interesting.

I'm always thinking, This is ballet music, when I hear Messiaen, perhaps because he is so obviously telling a story with celestial characters, and the music 'jumps' in that way that only Messiaen appears to utilize.

After the first long slow movement, the 'Seven Trumpets' pieces comes in with a shocking bass drum in this recording. I had actually raised the volume at the end of the slow movement to try and hear it better, and then, BOOM! BOOM!, haha. I think also in the seventh movement, there are lots of low brass that recall awesome spectacles of... I have to be honest, Messiaen may be Cathaholic, but his music sounds waaay more Hindu to me,... or, whatever one calls it?

So far it appears Rattle is taking a nice and lean and mean view of this piece, clocking in at exactly 1hr. I hear the Cambreling is 15mins. longer, but I like this Messiaen trimmed of fat. The slow movement had plenty of repose,... I don't think I'd need the first movement any slower,... I think Rattle does just fine hear, and I of course take the Berliners for granted (same as in Nagano Turangalila!).

I did want to mention the birdsong. The solos have been quite moving, and played with great brilliance by the flautists.


Whether this music were called The Planets, or Cosmos, or any such thing, the cosmic and grand nature of the music is undeniable. Messiaen excels at his own very convincing brand of 'Space Music', with equally meditative and terrifying strains. Overall all though I feel a profound stasis. I see the whole piece played out to a large red curtain at half light.



lescamil

Has anyone out there compared the Rattle and Metzmacher versions? I don't have the CD version of the Rattle, but I have a video of a live performance with him conducting the Berliners, and I'm not really familiar with it enough to talk more about it. The Metzmacher is a wonderful, clear recording. I would imagine that Boulez would conduct the work similarly.

I should mention that Éclairs is really not one of my favorite works by Messiaen, but I feel that is more my problem than the piece's problem. Maybe I need more time with it. I'll sit down with the score and listen a few more times. I adore other works from that time, though, such as the Concert à Quatre (even though Messiaen didn't complete it himself).
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snyprrr

Quote from: lescamil on September 08, 2011, 09:30:35 PM
Has anyone out there compared the Rattle and Metzmacher versions? I don't have the CD version of the Rattle, but I have a video of a live performance with him conducting the Berliners, and I'm not really familiar with it enough to talk more about it. The Metzmacher is a wonderful, clear recording. I would imagine that Boulez would conduct the work similarly.

I should mention that Éclairs is really not one of my favorite works by Messiaen, but I feel that is more my problem than the piece's problem. Maybe I need more time with it. I'll sit down with the score and listen a few more times. I adore other works from that time, though, such as the Concert à Quatre (even though Messiaen didn't complete it himself).

I'm interested too. Here's Rattle:

I     5:45
II    5:53
III   4:03
IV    1:53
V     10:11
VI    4:03
VII   3:32
VIII  11:14
IX     2:28
X      3:43
XI     7:40

lescamil

Quote from: snyprrr on September 09, 2011, 06:35:51 AM
I'm interested too. Here's Rattle:

I     5:45
II    5:53
III   4:03
IV    1:53
V     10:11
VI    4:03
VII   3:32
VIII  11:14
IX     2:28
X      3:43
XI     7:40

Well, I was asking more for a review in words, not the timings of the movements (which I could find online relatively easily).
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karlhenning

Quote from: Muzition on September 07, 2011, 06:10:46 PM
My local orchestra (Montreal Symphony Orchestra) is doing Turangalila next week.  I'm so excited!

Terrific! That is such a fun piece to hear live in the space!

snyprrr

WHO?? :-\ is in charge of the ArtDept. at DG?? >:D

The cover to Chung's Canyons/Etoiles... looks o.k. on Amazon, but when you're holding it, it's just as bad as their Eclairs. :-\ Awful. These covers definitely belong in a certain Thread! ;)

Anyhow, I chose Chung for Canyons because I thought the sound would have to be the best available out of the four, and, I couldn't imagine the playing being anything but perfect. Well, I do have any compares handy, but no matter, this Chung is pretty all inclusive. At times the hall brings a little attention to itself, but, considering the isolated context of the imagery of the piece, this reverberation is a good thing.

I think I've only heard Canyons once many years ago through Salonen, but, I think I was in a dismissive Messiaen mood at the time. Now, having kick started a Messiaen revival of sorts with the truly exciting Nagano Turangalila, and the equally hynotic Rattle Eclairs (both recordings showcasing the Berliners), Canyons hits my ears as the precursor of Messiaen's Late Works of the '80s. It certainly offsets Turangalila as something quite unto itself. Canyons allies itself more with the post-Chronochromie period of greater silences between statements.

I wasn't at first convinced of Canyons' soundworld, but, by 'Part 3', I really felt as though the sounds of the American SouthWest were truly being inhabited. I think you have to listen to the entire piece to 'get it'. It has such that particular/peculiar Messiaen soundworld of angularity mixed with the sensual, surrounded and punctuated by rests. It sounds simply to me as the alternative soundtrack to Forbidden Planet, so alien are its depictions.


I suppose I will have to get that DG Boulez recording of Chronochromie, but, I think that will be it for a good while. Nothing sounds like Turangalila, not even other Messiaen.


Also, I am hearing sooooo much Late Xenakis in Late Messiaen.

Muzition

I saw Turangalila live Wednesday night, and it was one of the greatest concert experiences of my life! I loved it all, from the bold brass chord to the delicate flute solos, from the eerie electronic swoop of the ondes martenot to the thrilling climaxes punctuated by the tam-tam.

It was played extremely well by the Montreal Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Kent Nagano.  I'm so happy to have heard it!

bhodges

Quote from: Muzition on September 16, 2011, 01:11:53 PM
I saw Turangalila live Wednesday night, and it was one of the greatest concert experiences of my life! I loved it all, from the bold brass chord to the delicate flute solos, from the eerie electronic swoop of the ondes martenot to the thrilling climaxes punctuated by the tam-tam.

It was played extremely well by the Montreal Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Kent Nagano.  I'm so happy to have heard it!

Sounds absolutely great. Nagano has a real feel for Messiaen; about five years ago I heard him in Éclairs sur l'au-delà...(Illuminations of the Beyond... with the New York Philharmonic, and he did an outstanding job with it as well.

Anyway, glad it was a good evening; that piece is such an experience heard live.

--Bruce