Olivier Messiaen (1908-1992)

Started by bhodges, January 03, 2008, 09:35:19 AM

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Joaquimhock

Quote from: EigenUser on May 16, 2014, 12:43:03 PM
I tend to say the last syllable as a nasal 'engh', i.e. Messia-engh instead of Messiae-ungh (as it is pronounced in the demonstration posted). From what I've heard, they tend to do this in southern France (the southern French accent is a little bit more nasal-sounding).

Yes, but even if Olivier Messiaen was born in Avignon, he spent his childhood in  the Alps and "Messiaen" is a name of Flemish origin (the majority of the persons called "Messiaen" are located in the North of France. In Flemish it should be pronounced "mess yaan"
Olivier Messiean had no specific accent, and certainly not a meridional accent.

http://www.genealogie.com/nom-de-famille/MESSIAEN.html
"Dans la vie il faut regarder par la fenêtre"

Ken B

Quote from: EigenUser on May 16, 2014, 12:43:03 PM
I tend to say the last syllable as a nasal 'engh', i.e. Messia-engh instead of Messiae-ungh (as it is pronounced in the demonstration posted). From what I've heard, they tend to do this in southern France (the southern French accent is a little bit more nasal-sounding).
Parley voo frans, eh?

My oldest friend spent a decade in Montreal and the 20 years in Paris. When I met his French wife she was surprised because (while my French is limited) my accent was she said much better than his.  >:D :laugh: :laugh:

EigenUser

I watched "Oiseaux Exotiques" on the Berlin DCH the other day. It was my second time hearing it and found it better than the first (seems to be the pattern). The first time I listened to it I was trying to do something else. I can't remember what I was trying to do, but I probably didn't do a very good job. That was probably the mistake -- it is anything but background music.

The only thing I still hated was the ending. He repeats the same loud, ugly chord over and over and over and over and over and over. Enough already!

Any opinions on this piece?
Beethoven's Op. 133 -- A fugue so bad that even Beethoven himself called it "Grosse".

lescamil

Quote from: EigenUser on May 19, 2014, 03:16:43 AM
I watched "Oiseaux Exotiques" on the Berlin DCH the other day. It was my second time hearing it and found it better than the first (seems to be the pattern). The first time I listened to it I was trying to do something else. I can't remember what I was trying to do, but I probably didn't do a very good job. That was probably the mistake -- it is anything but background music.

The only thing I still hated was the ending. He repeats the same loud, ugly chord over and over and over and over and over and over. Enough already!

Any opinions on this piece?

This was the piece that introduced me to Messiaen, and I honestly didn't know what was going on the first time I heard it (I was just a dumb teenager), but I kept coming back to it for some unknown reason. I kept listening and couldn't put it down, and here I am, some years later, and I count Messiaen among my all time favorites, and I've gone through just about all of his works with varying levels of appreciation, with this work near the top.

As for the chord, it isn't that ugly!
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Mandryka

#344
There are two Yvonne Loriot recordings of Catalogue d'Oiseaux on spotify. I just listened to Le Loriot. There's a fast one (Vega?) and a slow one (Erato?) I like the fast one.

In his notes Messiaen has all sorts of ideas about how to play it. He says that the song is flowing and golden, that it sounds like the laughter of a foreign prince, that it calls to mind Asia or Africa, or an unknown planet. He says it's full of light and rainbows, and full of Leonardo da Vinci style smiles. He says that music should feel like a nonchalant memory, the memory of gold and rainbows, a memory where the sun itself seems to be the emanation of the bird's song.

I don't think I'm entirely kidding myself when I say that her fast recording captures some of these ideas.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Archaic Torso of Apollo

Quote from: Velimir on May 15, 2014, 08:12:22 AM
Thanks, I've got the Chung already, but I want to get a different view of this piece. It's certainly vast enough to justify it.

Had the first listen to the Rattle Eclairs yesterday. I like it more than the Chung, though I haven't compared them closely. Rattle's take has a lot more energy and concentration, and a more powerful orchestra. The sonics are a little too close-up, but that also means things register vividly.
formerly VELIMIR (before that, Spitvalve)

"Who knows not strict counterpoint, lives and dies an ignoramus" - CPE Bach

EigenUser

Last night, my dad and I saw this outstanding documentary on Messiaen called "The Crystal Liturgy". A site called medici.tv has a $1 subscription offer for a month and they had this movie, so it is available to see for $1 if anyone is interested (this month only). It is in French, but there are English subtitles. There is no way I'd be able to understand Messiaen's French -- he talks very quickly and extremely enthusiastically. Really a cool guy -- it isn't hard to see why his students loved him so much.
Beethoven's Op. 133 -- A fugue so bad that even Beethoven himself called it "Grosse".

petrarch

Quote from: EigenUser on July 19, 2014, 03:54:36 AM
Last night, my dad and I saw this outstanding documentary on Messiaen called "The Crystal Liturgy". A site called medici.tv has a $1 subscription offer for a month and they had this movie, so it is available to see for $1 if anyone is interested (this month only). It is in French, but there are English subtitles. There is no way I'd be able to understand Messiaen's French -- he talks very quickly and extremely enthusiastically. Really a cool guy -- it isn't hard to see why his students loved him so much.

It is part of the outstanding Juxtapositions series. The one on Boulez is my favorite, but they are all quite good.

[asin]B000WPJ6O4[/asin]
//p
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EigenUser

Ken, I know that you are a fan of the Trois Petites Liturgies. Yesterday I was doing some comparative listening with the score. Out of the four Spotify recordings, the one that really impresses me is the Cardon. The first movement and middle of the third movement have a beautiful and delicate feel while the rhythmic bookends of the third movement are extremely propulsive -- a little slower than the others, but "heavier". What is your go-to version of this work?
Beethoven's Op. 133 -- A fugue so bad that even Beethoven himself called it "Grosse".

Ken B

Quote from: EigenUser on October 08, 2014, 05:06:56 PM
Ken, I know that you are a fan of the Trois Petites Liturgies. Yesterday I was doing some comparative listening with the score. Out of the four Spotify recordings, the one that really impresses me is the Cardon. The first movement and middle of the third movement have a beautiful and delicate feel while the rhythmic bookends of the third movement are extremely propulsive -- a little slower than the others, but "heavier". What is your go-to version of this work?
I don't know a lot of them, but I like the early 60s recording with the composer and his wife. Couraud.

Mandryka

Has anyone explored recordings of the Méditations sur le mystère de la sainte trinité? What are the most interesting ones to hear?
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

EigenUser

Quote from: Mandryka on October 15, 2014, 09:35:56 AM
Has anyone explored recordings of the Méditations sur le mystère de la sainte trinité? What are the most interesting ones to hear?
I haven't heard any of Messiaen's organ works. I don't care for organ music right now, but I'd like to hear a few of his compositions for organ since he is one of my favorite composers and organ music was a crucial part of his output. What would be a good place to start? I was thinking maybe L'ascension since I know the orchestral version very well (I'm aware that the 3rd movements are different).

L'ascension is a fairly conservative piece (much of it reminds me a lot of Debussy's Le Martyre de Saint-Sebastien), so I assume his style changed from there. Does he later use birdsong on the organ? I can't imagine how that would work, though I'm sure it did work if he did it.
Beethoven's Op. 133 -- A fugue so bad that even Beethoven himself called it "Grosse".

Mandryka

#352
Quote from: EigenUser on October 17, 2014, 01:31:22 AM
I haven't heard any of Messiaen's organ works. I don't care for organ music right now, but I'd like to hear a few of his compositions for organ since he is one of my favorite composers and organ music was a crucial part of his output. What would be a good place to start? I was thinking maybe L'ascension since I know the orchestral version very well (I'm aware that the 3rd movements are different).

L'ascension is a fairly conservative piece (much of it reminds me a lot of Debussy's Le Martyre de Saint-Sebastien), so I assume his style changed from there. Does he later use birdsong on the organ? I can't imagine how that would work, though I'm sure it did work if he did it.

Well it's impossible for me to answer a question like that. I'm very keen on the late style - the catalogue d'oiseaux, the etudes, St Francis. So it was natural that I would gravitate to the last big cycles. You're just going to have to suck it and see.

I've started to listen to the Livre du saint sacrement now - I think it's astonishing music.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

aukhawk

Quote from: EigenUser on October 17, 2014, 01:31:22 AM
I haven't heard any of Messiaen's organ works. I don't care for organ music right now, but I'd like to hear a few of his compositions for organ since he is one of my favorite composers and organ music was a crucial part of his output.

Funnily enough, I had records of Messiaen's organ music for about 10 years before I heard anything else he wrote.  And that made him one of my favourite composers too!

The pieces I have (Nativite du Seigneur, Livre d'Orgue, etc) tend to alternate long quiet contemplative passages with huge magisterial block chords.  I enjoy the former and skip the latter.

Mandryka

#354
Quote from: EigenUser on October 17, 2014, 01:31:22 AM
I haven't heard any of Messiaen's organ works. I don't care for organ music right now, but I'd like to hear a few of his compositions for organ since he is one of my favorite composers and organ music was a crucial part of his output. What would be a good place to start? I was thinking maybe L'ascension since I know the orchestral version very well (I'm aware that the 3rd movements are different).

L'ascension is a fairly conservative piece (much of it reminds me a lot of Debussy's Le Martyre de Saint-Sebastien), so I assume his style changed from there. Does he later use birdsong on the organ? I can't imagine how that would work, though I'm sure it did work if he did it.

I think you should start at the end, with the Livre du Saint Sacrement, because it's musically very bold, and because there's an easily obtainable recording which is particularly convincing and which is historically important  - Jennifer Bate's . Jennifer Bate created the music, she was supervised by Messiaen while she recorded it, he approved enthusiastically of what she did.


Le Livre du Saint Sacrement is a massive cosmic journey written in an uncompromising and idiosyncratic modernist idiom. It's a major work of art, enormously challenging, which says big things
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

NLK1971

#355
Quote from: Mandryka on October 19, 2014, 07:27:09 AM
I think you should start at the end, with the Livre du Saint Sacrement, because it's musically very bold, and because there's an easily obtainable recording which is particularly convincing and which is historically important  - Jennifer Bate's . Jennifer Bate created the music, she was supervised by Messiaen while she recorded it, he approved enthusiastically of what she did.

Indeed, these recordings were reissued recently:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Messiaen-Organ-Works-Jennifer-Bate/dp/B00N7CM0YW
[asin]B00N7CM0YW[/asin]

However, the label and standard of presentation are unknown to me.

Personally, the only major organ works of Messiaen's that I've heard are L'ascension and La nativite, but I recall finding them more consistently compelling than the few orchestral works I've listened to.  Perhaps that's because they are earlier works.

Mandryka

Quote from: NLK1971 on October 19, 2014, 08:52:50 AM
Indeed, these recordings were reissued recently:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Messiaen-Organ-Works-Jennifer-Bate/dp/B00N7CM0YW
[asin]B00N7CM0YW[/asin]

However, the label and standard of presentation are unknown to me.

Personally, the only major organ works of Messiaen's that I've heard are L'ascension and La nativite, but I recall finding them more consistently compelling than the few orchestral works I've listened to.  Perhaps that's because they are earlier works.

I'm not convinced that she's as good in all of the other music as she is in the Livre du saint sacrement.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Mandryka

#357
When Messiaen's mother, Cécile Sauvage,  was pregnant with him, she started to write some poems for her as yet unborn child, a cycle of poems in fact, completed about two years after his birth, and published as L'âme bourgeon.   Olivier cherished these poems, and participated in a recording of them - the poems were recited by Gisèle Casadesus, and OM contributed some improvisations on the organ.

Never commercially off LP, but now transferred privately and available for the taking on symphonyshare. This is a recording which will  interest people who are curious about Messiaen's art and who can understand French.

Years ago two CDs of Messiaen improvising in services at his church, L'église de la trinité.  They are amateur recordings made by someone in the congregation. The CDs have long been impossible to find. These too have been put on symphonyshare.

Another recent discovery has been Susan Landale's recording of Le Livre du Saint Sacrement, a recording as indispensable as Jennifer Bate's, and with better sound.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

EigenUser

The library at my university has 5 of the 7 volumes of Messiaen's amazingly thorough Traite de Rhythme, de Couleur, et d'Ornithologie (tr. "Treatise on Rhythm, Color, and Ornithology"). It is all in French so it is taking me a while to read (I am semi-fluent, but out of practice -- certainly helps to have Google translate open for the words I don't know!). Has anyone heard of it or read it? It is different than the much earlier Techniques of My Musical Language as it was published after he died.

I read through the analysis of the Turangalila-Symphonie and he comes across as a very enthusiastic writer. Confident, but not full of himself (like Boulez can be). I particularly liked his defense of the criticisms for the Joie du Sang des Etoiles (paraphrasing from what I can remember):

This movement seems to have attracted the most criticism. Prudes complain that it is too sensual. Serialists complain that it is too tonal. All as if these are bad things!
Beethoven's Op. 133 -- A fugue so bad that even Beethoven himself called it "Grosse".

Mirror Image

Cross-posted from the 'Purchases' thread -

Quote from: Mirror Image on December 02, 2014, 02:57:10 PM
I couldn't resist:



Bought this for $84 via Presto Classical. One of the best deals I've seen for this set. Now, I own most of the sets of Messiaen. The only ones I'm lacking are the EMI and Naive sets.

Anyone own this set? I'm sure several people do here.