Olivier Messiaen (1908-1992)

Started by bhodges, January 03, 2008, 09:35:19 AM

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Mirror Image

#360
I will say this and this is my honest assessment of Messiaen: I am not moved by his music at all. In fact, even the slow movements of Quartet for the End of Time didn't even affect me and, from what I've read, these movements contain some of the most hauntingly beautiful music he has composed. Let me also say I'm not here to bash his music or tell anyone else that they're wrong for liking his music, that wouldn't be right on my part. What I am saying is that I've tried to like Messiaen's music, I've seriously tried, but there's a certain aesthetic about his music that seems to rub me the wrong way. I'm still going to try and explore more of his music but I figured I would spill the beans here instead of pretending to be enthusiastic about a composer that has consistently challenged me every step of the way.

EigenUser

Quote from: Mirror Image on December 02, 2014, 07:12:38 PM
I will say this and this is my honest assessment of Messiaen: I am not moved by his music at all. In fact, even the slow movements of Quartet for the End of Time didn't even affect me and, from what I've read, these movements contain some of the most hauntingly beautiful music he has composed. Let me also say I'm not here to bash his music or tell anyone else that they're wrong for liking his music, that wouldn't be right on my part. What I am saying is that I've tried to like Messiaen's music, I've seriously tried, but there's a certain aesthetic about his music that seems to rub me the wrong way. I'm still going to try and explore more of his music but I figured I would spill the beans here instead of pretending to be enthusiastic about a composer that has consistently challenged me every step of the way.
Fair enough! And you've inspired me to give Schoenberg's Five Pieces another try in the very near future... ;D
(and a few other things that I don't care for -- i.e. Gruppen, Berg's VC, etc.).

There is definitely an odd aesthetic about his music that differs greatly from many other 20C composers. I freely admit that it is 'clank-y' and more than occasionally too repetitive. Many times, this rubs me the wrong way, too. Somehow, though, I find that an overwhelming sense of joy and blinding glory outshines these negative qualities. If someone doesn't get this enough to counteract, then they are probably going to find his music unpleasant to listen to.
Beethoven's Op. 133 -- A fugue so bad that even Beethoven himself called it "Grosse".

Fagotterdämmerung

Quote from: Mirror Image on December 02, 2014, 07:12:38 PM
I will say this and this is my honest assessment of Messiaen: I am not moved by his music at all. In fact, even the slow movements of Quartet for the End of Time didn't even affect me and, from what I've read, these movements contain some of the most hauntingly beautiful music he has composed. Let me also say I'm not here to bash his music or tell anyone else that they're wrong for liking his music, that wouldn't be right on my part. What I am saying is that I've tried to like Messiaen's music, I've seriously tried, but there's a certain aesthetic about his music that seems to rub me the wrong way. I'm still going to try and explore more of his music but I figured I would spill the beans here instead of pretending to be enthusiastic about a composer that has consistently challenged me every step of the way.

Messiaen is my favorite composer, and I think the slow movements of the Quartet are fairly middling in terms of his overall output. They are accessible, especially compared to his mid-century works with heavy birdsong influence, but for moving slow movements I prefer Prière du Christ montant vers son Père from the orchestral L'ascension; its cousin a half-century later in Demeurer dans l'Amour... from Éclairs sur l'au-delà...; or for something more intimate, Les bergers from La Nativité du Seigneur. ( I'm sure I'm going to get my Messiaen fan-club membership revoked for this, I actually prefer the Méditation from Thaïs to Louange à l'Immortalité de Jésus! )

None the less, he went through quite a few different phases in his span, so if you're still curious to explore, what pieces other than the Quartet have you explored? Perhaps we can suggest some works from his oeuvre that might appeal more to your taste?

In general, when introducing friends to his music, I've found that shorter and more intimate pieces are the route to go. Brief works like Diptyque and O Sacrum Convivium are charming vignettes of his work. The toccata of Dieu Parmi Nous is another thing that I've gotten good feedback from, even from some non-classical listening kinds.

There is always the chance that you just might not like anything he's produced, but since there was some lingering curiosity I thought I'd reply.  :)

EigenUser

Quote from: Fagotterdämmerung on December 04, 2014, 12:25:49 PM
Messiaen is my favorite composer, and I think the slow movements of the Quartet are fairly middling in terms of his overall output. They are accessible, especially compared to his mid-century works with heavy birdsong influence, but for moving slow movements I prefer Prière du Christ montant vers son Père from the orchestral L'ascension; its cousin a half-century later in Demeurer dans l'Amour... from Éclairs sur l'au-delà...; or for something more intimate, Les bergers from La Nativité du Seigneur. ( I'm sure I'm going to get my Messiaen fan-club membership revoked for this, I actually prefer the Méditation from Thaïs to Louange à l'Immortalité de Jésus! )

None the less, he went through quite a few different phases in his span, so if you're still curious to explore, what pieces other than the Quartet have you explored? Perhaps we can suggest some works from his oeuvre that might appeal more to your taste?

In general, when introducing friends to his music, I've found that shorter and more intimate pieces are the route to go. Brief works like Diptyque and O Sacrum Convivium are charming vignettes of his work. The toccata of Dieu Parmi Nous is another thing that I've gotten good feedback from, even from some non-classical listening kinds.

There is always the chance that you just might not like anything he's produced, but since there was some lingering curiosity I thought I'd reply.  :)

John (Mirror Image) likes L'ascension (as do I), as far as I remember.

Quote from: Fagotterdämmerung on December 04, 2014, 12:25:49 PM
In general, when introducing friends to his music, I've found that shorter and more intimate pieces are the route to go...
In my opinion, there's also nothing wrong with enjoying part of a work. Eclairs... and Canyons... are just sooo long that I often just listen to a few movements at a time.

Fortunately, my favorite Messiaen is Et Exspecto Resurrectionem Mortuorum, which is only about 30 minutes long.
Beethoven's Op. 133 -- A fugue so bad that even Beethoven himself called it "Grosse".

Mirror Image

Quote from: Fagotterdämmerung on December 04, 2014, 12:25:49 PM
Messiaen is my favorite composer, and I think the slow movements of the Quartet are fairly middling in terms of his overall output. They are accessible, especially compared to his mid-century works with heavy birdsong influence, but for moving slow movements I prefer Prière du Christ montant vers son Père from the orchestral L'ascension; its cousin a half-century later in Demeurer dans l'Amour... from Éclairs sur l'au-delà...; or for something more intimate, Les bergers from La Nativité du Seigneur. ( I'm sure I'm going to get my Messiaen fan-club membership revoked for this, I actually prefer the Méditation from Thaïs to Louange à l'Immortalité de Jésus! )

None the less, he went through quite a few different phases in his span, so if you're still curious to explore, what pieces other than the Quartet have you explored? Perhaps we can suggest some works from his oeuvre that might appeal more to your taste?

In general, when introducing friends to his music, I've found that shorter and more intimate pieces are the route to go. Brief works like Diptyque and O Sacrum Convivium are charming vignettes of his work. The toccata of Dieu Parmi Nous is another thing that I've gotten good feedback from, even from some non-classical listening kinds.

There is always the chance that you just might not like anything he's produced, but since there was some lingering curiosity I thought I'd reply.  :)

At one point, I listened to all of Messiaen's orchestral oeuvre. Of course, I can't remember all of the works now as it's been about a year or two ago when I listened to Messiaen in that kind of depth. My favorite work of his is one that Nate (EigenUser) mentioned L'ascension. The best thing he wrote IMHO and one that appeals to my own tastes, but even then it's not something I care to listen to that often. To give you an idea of where I'm coming from musically, my top five favorite composers are: Shostakovich, Ravel, Bartok, Vaughan Williams, and Villa-Lobos.

torut

Quote from: EigenUser on October 17, 2014, 01:31:22 AM
Does he later use birdsong on the organ? I can't imagine how that would work, though I'm sure it did work if he did it.
Hans-Ola Ericsson's set is accompanied with a nice booklet that explains where birdsongs are used in Messiaen's organ works, and it also contains recordings of real birdsongs. :) These are the works which include passages inspired by birdsongs.

Messe de la Pentecôte (1950)
Livre d'orgue (1951)
Méditations sur le mystère de la Sainte Trinité (1969)
Livre du Saint-Sacrement (1984)

[asin]B001RX3L0A[/asin]

torut

Quote from: Philoctetes on May 03, 2011, 08:41:38 AM
Apparition de l Eglise Eternelle is my favorite organ work, period. It's a layered construction which is essentially one large culmination of a crescendo.

L Ascension and Messe de la Pentecote are also both fantastic.

But for me, and this shows a bias, you cannot go wrong with any of his organ compositions.

Quote from: aukhawk on October 17, 2014, 09:54:53 AM
Funnily enough, I had records of Messiaen's organ music for about 10 years before I heard anything else he wrote.  And that made him one of my favourite composers too!

The pieces I have (Nativite du Seigneur, Livre d'Orgue, etc) tend to alternate long quiet contemplative passages with huge magisterial block chords.  I enjoy the former and skip the latter.

I enjoyed all the organ works of Messiaen very much. L'ascension is very nice (I like the orchestral version too.) I too love contemplative parts in works such as Les Corps Glorieux. They often feel ethereal.

Although it is the only recording of Messiaen's organ works I have, I think the Ericsson's set is excellent. The organ sound is very clear and beautiful. (Be careful if you buy mp3. The audio files from cduniverse have too many glitches (I don't know about Amazon, Google, etc.), so I purchased the physical CD set. It contains a good 232-page booklet in English, French and German.)

Johnll

#367
W
Quote from: Mandryka on October 25, 2014, 11:49:38 PM

Another recent discovery has been Susan Landale's recording of Le Livre du Saint Sacrement, a recording as indispensable as Jennifer Bate's, and with better sound.

Bates is the only recording I have ever had. It is ripped to my old pc and and i have not transferred (so I cannot directly compare) but I have been enjoyed Michael Bonaventure on a streamer and my impression it may be better. Have you heard this and have an opinion?  Some where in this thread (I think) you mentioned St Francis. It is encouraging to hear others speak about this piece.

Mandryka

Quote from: Johnll on December 26, 2014, 04:46:03 PM
W
Bates is the only recording I have ever had. It is ripped to my old pc and and i have not transferred (so I cannot directly compare) but I have been enjoyed Michael Bonaventure on a streamer and my impression it may be better. Have you heard this and have an opinion?  Some where in this thread (I think) you mentioned St Francis. It is encouraging to hear others speak about this piece.

I have now heard Michael Bonaventure's Livre du Saint Sacrement and I think it's wonderful, really wonderful. So thanks. Very meditative. Have you heard any other recordings by him?

Re Saint Francis, my problem is that I've never seen a good production. Having said that, quite recently I played the recording with Fischer Dieskau and really enjoyed it.

It reminds me a bit of Parsifal, the rhythm of static and dynamic bits.

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Johnll

Quote from: Mandryka on January 02, 2015, 08:14:16 AM
I have now heard Michael Bonaventure's Livre du Saint Sacrement and I think it's wonderful, really wonderful. So thanks. Very meditative. Have you heard any other recordings by him?

Re Saint Francis, my problem is that I've never seen a good production. Having said that, quite recently I played the recording with Fischer Dieskau and really enjoyed it.

It reminds me a bit of Parsifal, the rhythm of static and dynamic bits.

Thanks for giving Bonaventure a listen. I came upon him just sampling alternatives available on my streamer. I have no musical background so my comments are an entirely emotional response. St Francis is a bizarre, much too long piece that might give even Wagner pause. There is some quality there that appeals even though in any objective way it should not. I am thinking of the contrast with Debussy's  Mélisande which is far more "musical".

Artem

I finished this short book recently about the quartet and the time that Messiaen and musicians who performed his quartet with him spent in the Stalag camp and also about their lives afterwards.

It doesn't go into the more controversial subjects related to Messiaen that are appearing more frequently these days, but there was an interesting point how Messiaen when talking about the creation and premier of the quartet tried to make up some things to make it look more dramatic. There was also a story of how after being freed he didn't go to visit relatives of one of his camp mates, even though other people who were in the camp with him were supporting that family.


MishaK

Yo-Yo Ma and friends are playing the Quatuor pour etc. here in Chicago next month, but tix are ridiculously expensive.  :P

Archaic Torso of Apollo

Quote from: MishaK on April 08, 2015, 11:50:47 AM
Yo-Yo Ma and friends are playing the Quatuor pour etc. here in Chicago next month, but tix are ridiculously expensive.  :P

I'm not going to that, but I will go to the CSO's Turangalila (with Salonen) in May.
formerly VELIMIR (before that, Spitvalve)

"Who knows not strict counterpoint, lives and dies an ignoramus" - CPE Bach

MishaK

Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on April 08, 2015, 11:53:47 AM
I'm not going to that, but I will go to the CSO's Turangalila (with Salonen) in May.

Cool. I'm going to the Saturday performances of all three Salonen programs.  :D  That's part of our little DIY subscription. I heard Yo-Yo do the Quatuor with Barenboim and other CSO members at Carnegie 15 years ago!

EigenUser

I discovered the Poemes Pour Mi a few days ago. I had heard them a couple of months ago but didn't really pay much attention then. They are really nice songs, I think. They sound so French.

I also made it through Harawi yesterday. :blank:
Beethoven's Op. 133 -- A fugue so bad that even Beethoven himself called it "Grosse".

EigenUser

Yesterday I heard Messiaen's Fetes des Belles Eaux for six ondes-Martinots. I didn't realize what an involved work that is! I always assumed it was some short piece that he wrote. On the contrary, its scale is more along the lines of the Quartour pour la Fin du Temps.

I was disappointed that there was no glissando (i.e. use of the 'ruban')! I was waiting for it the whole time!
Beethoven's Op. 133 -- A fugue so bad that even Beethoven himself called it "Grosse".

Abuelo Igor

Maybe that's because no flying saucers were coming...  :)
L'enfant, c'est moi.

early grey

On 28th June 2015 a concert took place at the Royal Festival Hall, London. Here are my observations:
"From our vantage point in Row W, we see the keyboards of the Vibes, the Celeste, the Keyed Glockenspiel and the Piano and the Ondes Martinot facing us from beside the cellos. The double basses are backs to the wall on the far side on their dais whereas next to the tall malletman below us are the fair maidens of the back row of the first violins and amazingly considering how packed the rest of the stage is... empty space. "Syrinx" and "La Demoiselle Elue" were before the interval ( I've looked up the D.G.Rossetti poem in our Palgrave ) so now it is the "Turangalîla" under Esa-Pekka Salonen and the Philharmonia. Wow. I had a silly grin on my face nearly all the way through at the kaleidoscope of sound, at the sheer nerve of the thematic repetition/variation, at the orchestration sounding from time to time like the Charles Ives simultaneous marching bands or the fairground clash of different stalls and their raucous music and at the conductor's confident marshalling of the huge orchestra. I was intrigued by how often the Glock and the piano were in unison providing harmonic and rhythmic punctuation. The audience seemed to like it and (I never do this!) I was on my feet with most of them at the end.

I was reminded of this connection between the conductor and the work:

"Another name for Finland is 'Karjala'. It is interesting that in Sanskrit 'KarjAla' (करजाल) means 'streams of light' which may be a reference to the 'northern lights' or 'auroras' visible in Finland." Hence "Karelia" ?

Turangalîla is a combination of two Sanskrit words: turanga, meaning time and the more difficult to translate lîla, meaning love but also the play that is life and death."

Geoff Brown of the "Times" (UK) said ".. for this was the tastiest, most incandescent live performance of the monster that I've certainly heard."

You can hear for yourself on BBC i-Player, this is the link, valid for 24 days

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05w80vk

and a reminder that the Charles Groves, John Ogdon, Jeanne Loriot, BBC SO performance  from 1969 is to be found here:

http://www.cliveheathmusic.co.uk/tapes.php

North Star

Quote from: early grey on June 03, 2015, 05:24:18 AMI was reminded of this connection between the conductor and the work:

"Another name for Finland is 'Karjala'. It is interesting that in Sanskrit 'KarjAla' (करजाल) means 'streams of light' which may be a reference to the 'northern lights' or 'auroras' visible in Finland." Hence "Karelia" ?
Karjala / Karelia is not 'another name for Finland'. It's a part of Eastern Finland that was mostly stolen by the Soviet Union during & after the wars. In the 18th century and before it was often enough under Russian rule and the culture has always been heavily influenced by the Orthodox Church compared to the rest of Finland.
"Everything has beauty, but not everyone sees it." - Confucius

My photographs on Flickr

CRCulver

#379
Quote from: early grey link=topic=5203.msg897722#msg897722
"Another name for Finland is 'Karjala'. It is interesting that in Sanskrit 'KarjAla' (करजाल) means 'streams of light' which may be a reference to the 'northern lights' or 'auroras' visible in Finland." Hence "Karelia"?

Did you get that from this crackpot site? It's just the usual Hindutva pseudoscience. Karjala isn't another name for Finland. It's the Finnish-language name for Karelia, a territory that covers part of Eastern Finland and northwestern Russia. In any event, there is no relationship between the two languages in this respect. The Finnish name Karjala is believed to derive from an old military context and is ultimately borrowed from Germanic harja- 'horde'. As for the Sanskrit, the word is actually karajāla, not "KarjAla", and no connection with the Finnish is possible: j (this letter is used to represent a different sound than the j in Finnish) in Sanskrit always comes from an earlier g.