Olivier Messiaen (1908-1992)

Started by bhodges, January 03, 2008, 09:35:19 AM

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SimonNZ

Quote from: Chronochromie on January 17, 2016, 07:20:24 PM
One must keep in mind that Loriod made two recordings of Catalogue d'oiseaux. The one in the Messiaen Edition is generally slower than the other one that I found on Spotify with this cover:



I prefer this one, but the sound is worse than the one in the Messiaen Edition.

Would that have started life as this box?:



I'll try and find that in some form and give it a listen. But your last comment may be a deal breaker for me: this is a work that requires a very high level of sonic clarity.


Dax

Quote from: Mandryka on January 17, 2016, 09:30:01 PM
Who? I couldn't think of anyone when I made my list.

The two performances I remember with some affection are both 1960s (I think) - Ronald Lumsden and John Ogdon (very fast!).
I suppose Peter Hill has recorded it, but I really don't rate his playing (e.g., compare his Preludes with those of Loriod).

Any other contenders?

Dax


bwv 1080


snyprrr

Quote from: Dax on January 17, 2016, 02:57:48 PM
Thomas Rajna playingRegard de l'esprit de joie

Yvonne Loriod playing the Preludes

Somebody playing Canteyodjaya
Quote from: Mandryka on January 17, 2016, 10:58:26 AM
Paul Jacobs playing the Quatre Etudes De Rythme.

Peter Hill playing La fauvette passerinette

Anton Batagov playing the 20 Regards
Quote from: Chronochromie on January 17, 2016, 05:22:26 PM
The early Preludes played by Loriod or maybe Visions de l'Amen for two pianos played by the Labèque sisters.
Quote from: SimonNZ on January 17, 2016, 06:36:41 PM
The best introduction is straight into the deep end:

Catalogue d'Oiseaux performed by Yvonne Loroid...played so loud its like you're inside the instrument, awash in every overtone and decay


Quote from: Monsieur Croche on January 17, 2016, 08:23:15 PM
My two cents:

Vingt Regards Sur L'Enfant-Jésus ~ Roger Muraro, piano.
Quote from: Dax on January 18, 2016, 02:51:18 AM
The two performances I remember with some affection are both 1960s (I think) - Ronald Lumsden and John Ogdon (very fast!).
I suppose Peter Hill has recorded it, but I really don't rate his playing (e.g., compare his Preludes with those of Loriod).

Any other contenders?
Quote from: bwv 1080 on January 19, 2016, 03:55:58 AM
This is The recording to get



OK, are we having a fully fledged Messiaen-a-thon of Piano Music? Good! I have done just a little collating:

And, to be clear, I'm more concerned with the 3 Big Works: 'Visions', 'Regards', and 'Catalogue d'... though I rate the 4 Etudes and Caty-Jody(?!?!) very highly.

So, Let's get to it:

VISIONS DE L'AMEN


1) Nonken/Rothenberg
2) Osbourne + (Hyperion)
3) Serkin/Takahashi (RCA)... IS THIS THE ONE EVERYONE RAVES ABOUT???
4) Ogden/Lucas
5) Pianoduo (Channel Classics)
6) Labeque (Erato)
7) Messiaen/Loriod
8) Duo'd Accord
9) Argerich/Rabino...(EMI)... I've heard this one, but can't remember, comment
10) Ausbo + (Naxos)
11) Oppens/Lowenthal
12) Wergo
13) Guild
14) Kim/Kim ( Centaur)
15) Hill + (Unicorn-K)
16) Bon/de Leeuw (Montaigne)
17) Double Edge(?) (New Albion)- I remember not thinking much of this one, in the day... sound to dry perhaps?
18) Elizabeth ______ LP?

19) Muraro?????NO recording??

snyprrr

VIGNT REGARDS


1) Osbourne (Hyperion)
2) Serkin (RCA)
3) Aimard (SONY)... of course I wonder how good the sound is... though, is he "soft"?
4) Austbo (Naxos)
5) Loriod (ERato)
6) Chauveau
7) Beroff (EMI)... criticism?
8) Zehn (Arts)
9) Ogden (Decca)
10) MacGregor (Collins)
11) Hewitt excepts (Hyp.)
12) Knapik
13) Batagov- I hear things about this one!! but the sound can't be all that, huh?,......
14) MacGregor 2.0 ???????
15) Wergo
16) Muraro No.2
17) Hersch
18) Chew
19) Hill (Unicorn-K)
20) Troup
21) Bessette (Atma)
22) Alice Ader (Adda)
23) joiuzapenade-eeemean???
24) Groslot (Fidelio)
25) Mikhail Rudi*** hey- he's pretty good, I wonder what this sounds like
26) de Oliviera
27) Pierre Reach
28) Carl-Axel Dominique
29) Muraro No.1 (1981)

snyprrr

CATALOG OF BIRDS


1) Ausbo (Naxos)
2) Ugorski (DG)... yea, but I hear criticism that he's "soft"
3) Hill (Unicorn-K)
4) Muraro (Accord)... they say he's "verrry quiet, but plays fast well when needed"... they chose him over Zehn or Ausbo...
5) Kodama... sounds soft on the samples...
6) Carl-Axel Dominique (BIS).... reviewer liked the clangy quality here, compared with Zehn and Austbo...
7) de Oliviera Carvalho
8) Zehn (Arts)
9) Loriod (Erato)... I hear this one is verrry loud - clangy.... howz the sound?



ok, computy wont allow.... uh... so, let's at it on these three works....

snyprrr

I would prefer the most alien piano style with the most scintillating sound.

Karl Henning

Quote from: snyprrr on January 19, 2016, 02:48:27 PM
I would prefer the most alien piano style with the most scintillating sound.
Why, of course you do.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Mandryka

Quote from: snyprrr on January 19, 2016, 02:28:34 PM
VIGNT REGARDS


1) Osbourne (Hyperion)
2) Serkin (RCA)
3) Aimard (SONY)... of course I wonder how good the sound is... though, is he "soft"?
4) Austbo (Naxos)
5) Loriod (ERato)
6) Chauveau
7) Beroff (EMI)... criticism?
8) Zehn (Arts)
9) Ogden (Decca)
10) MacGregor (Collins)
11) Hewitt excepts (Hyp.)
12) Knapik
13) Batagov- I hear things about this one!! but the sound can't be all that, huh?,......
14) MacGregor 2.0 ???????
15) Wergo
16) Muraro No.2
17) Hersch
18) Chew
19) Hill (Unicorn-K)
20) Troup
21) Bessette (Atma)
22) Alice Ader (Adda)
23) joiuzapenade-eeemean???
24) Groslot (Fidelio)
25) Mikhail Rudi*** hey- he's pretty good, I wonder what this sounds like
26) de Oliviera
27) Pierre Reach
28) Carl-Axel Dominique
29) Muraro No.1 (1981)

Batagov sounds excellent.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Mandryka

#410
Quote from: snyprrr on January 19, 2016, 02:48:27 PM
I would prefer the most alien piano style with the most scintillating sound.

In terms of composition, catalogue d'oiseaux is the most alien style, it's really difficult music. To appreciate it you need a detailed tourist guide of all the regions of France mentioned, OM's notes,,and a recording of the bird noises. Does it repay the effort?  - A toi de voir.

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

snyprrr

Quote from: Mandryka on January 19, 2016, 09:24:38 PM
In terms of composition, catalogue d'oiseaux is the most alien style, it's really difficult music. To appreciate it you need a detailed tourist guide of all the regions of France mentioned, OM's notes,,and a recording of the bird noises. Does it repay the effort?  - A toi de voir.

I don't know why, but all of a sudden I've opened up to Messiaen's uniquely clangorous Piano Music. I guess I'm finally "ready" for it. Yea, I've got a real achin for the 'Catalog' right now...

either way, quite an impressive lineup of artists there...

Karl Henning

Quote from: snyprrr on January 20, 2016, 06:06:45 AM
I don't know why, but all of a sudden I've opened up to Messiaen's uniquely clangorous Piano Music.

Cool.

http://www.youtube.com/v/DHqvZk4mQs4
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Parsifal

Quote from: Mandryka on January 19, 2016, 09:24:38 PM
In terms of composition, catalogue d'oiseaux is the most alien style, it's really difficult music. To appreciate it you need a detailed tourist guide of all the regions of France mentioned, OM's notes,,and a recording of the bird noises. Does it repay the effort?  - A toi de voir.

Oddly enough, I appreciated it by listening to it.

Karl Henning

Quote from: Scarpia on January 20, 2016, 06:27:09 AM
Oddly enough, I appreciated it by listening to it.

I endorse this approach.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Mandryka

#415
It's the structure of the catalogue d'oiseaux pieces which is tough. Without the tourist guide and notes, it's just so much note spinning IMO. This is programme music after all, and hence you need to get your head round the programme.

In this and in 20 Regards, I think Messiaen's texts and his music are inseparable. Just as with the titles of the Debussy preludes. He did, I think, publish the commentaries with the music in catalogue d'oiseaux.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Parsifal

The bird songs gave him motifs that stimulated his musical imagination. That is a sufficient basis for me to enjoy the work. Knowing more of the actual birds and their natural songs may well contribute to one's appreciation of the work, but I do not feel any lack of satisfaction for not knowing them.

Chronochromie

Quote from: Mandryka on January 20, 2016, 08:33:08 AM
It's the structure of the catalogue d'oiseaux pieces which is tough. Without the tourist guide and notes, it's just so much note spinning IMO. This is programme music after all, and hence you need to get your head round the programme.

In this and in 20 Regards, I think Messiaen's texts and his music are inseparable. Just as with the titles of the Debussy preludes. He did, I think, publish the commentaries with the music in catalogue d'oiseaux.

Do bear in mind that Debussy did not mean for the Preludes to be programme music. He put the titles are at the end of each Prelude.

SimonNZ

Quote from: Scarpia on January 20, 2016, 09:41:45 AM
The bird songs gave him motifs that stimulated his musical imagination. That is a sufficient basis for me to enjoy the work. Knowing more of the actual birds and their natural songs may well contribute to one's appreciation of the work, but I do not feel any lack of satisfaction for not knowing them.

+1. This. Exactly.

Also: I've never heard the Debussy Preludes as "programme" music, and would never want to. Which doesn't then make it merely "just so much note-spinning". And simply giving a piece a title isn't enough it make it programme music, is it? Doesn't that require a bit more of story than a passing glimpse or impression?

Mandryka

#419
In the case of catalogue d'oiseaux, it's much more than a brief title at the end. It's a humongous description of a scene in a specific geography, often with a long time span. They're sometimes performed with narrator. They're as much programme music as The Domestic Symphony.

I'd be interested if anyone thinks of them differently. I've often wondered if they are spiritual in some sense, given the leanings of the composer.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen